KING OF SWORDS 10-167
The lord of the vale and his thugs laughed at Intra and his preposterous proclamation. But their mirth was cruel, so they stayed to watch his futile labor.
“I will turn this rock into fire,” said Intra. The men roared with laughter.
“Fool!” they cackled. “The rock shall not become fire, no matter your wish.”
Intra ignored them, turned the rock in his well worn hand, and dug a shallow pit with it, piling the earth carefully at the sides. Then he gathered dry brush and reeds and piled them high in the pit. The sun was hot and bright overhead as he worked, and his traveling clothes were soiled with sweat as he worked. The men bade the villagers of that place gather water for them to drink as they watched Intra’s labors.
From his traveling cloth, Intra produced a sword. The thugs watching him leaned forward at this, but then quickly relaxed. It was a decrepit and battered thing, well used and pitted and chipped.
“I no longer use this to kill men,” said Intra. “But it’s very good for cooking dinner.”
Intra struck the rock against his sword, and a spark flew into the dry brush. Intra fanned it with great care, and soon a roaring fire blazed in the village square.
– The Song of Maybe
Gods this art is beautiful.
I’m personally a really big fan of how her hair shares the same blue to orange to gold gradation as her wing. It does a nice job of implying a sort of “cold fire” energy to her and now (!) it goes great with her skin tone!
I imagined her fro would persist, but it makes sense, practical and otherwise, that her turning “condensed” a liquid Angel’s mane into what appear to be incandescent white chains of locks.
… WAIT WHAT
*MIND BLOWN*
THEY ARE GAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
so?
So good!!!!!!
(2) Trans Rights!!!
Hell yeah, friend, Trans Fuckin Rights!!!
Her left wasn’t all that bad either ……
Good for them. Good for them.
Has it seriously taken you this long to figure this out?
How many kisses and sex references have there been already?
Cio commented a few comments ago about being “a bad girlfriend”!
I think they were talking about White Chain in particular
It was a happy proclamation, not a startled realization
I honestly start to consider dropping this comic…
Don’t worry, you’re not contributing anything, so you won’t be missed.
Bye!
Don’t listen to the haters. Discuss your discomfort or disagreement, with an open mind, and they shall do the same. Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
“only a sith deals in absolutes” is an absolute, though… frankly, things are hardly ever as black and white as that except on some issues where that’s all there is.
Then I will try to explain. If someone is gay – I generally don’t care as it’s his problem and not mine. What I dislike is promoting such things. If someone was walking on the street waving a banner saying he is a proud heterosexual, it’d be instantly seen as distasteful and possibly homophobic. The reaction should be the same if he’s holding a rainbow flag instead as one’s sexuality is not a thing to swing around. And here I see a comic that’s interesting and everything was okay until is started shoving that rainbow in my face… I mean, of course – “if you don’t like it, don’t read it” – but it was fun before. Imagine reading through first three tomes of Harry Potter just to see they’re burning black people on stakes there (which they fortunately don’t) or do something else you disagree with. That’s not cool.
So… Page 1 of the entire comic has two of the characters awkwardly trying to have sex. Page 14 is the first mention of White Chain’s gender being in question. It doesn’t stop there. Sex and sexuality are common topics in the comic, so if you’re only noticing it now… I don’t know what to tell you.
Your examples are telling.
Burning black people on a cross is not equivalent to two people ‘being gay’ in public.
No one here is waving a flag, just being human* after an astonishing moment.
*Maybe?
He was not implying that it was the equivalent. Rather he was trying to put forth an example that most people would disagree with, and I believe he succeeded.
i can’t believe people like this still exist 💔
You must be extremely sheltered then.
I agree with everything you have said.
I generally didn’t see it that way at all. In the Book of Enoch, Angels have no sexuality UNLESS they become Nephalim, which I strongly suspect she’s become here. This struck me more as an exploration of how that could come about in this fantasy world then anything pushing an agenda concerning our world.
And nothing of value was lost.
T’is a joyous moment their gaiety is a good thing in such a time. After all, it is but a gay old time…
they are gay and SO AM I
Is she? I don’t think the angels have ever had to come to terms with sexuality until now.
Yeah I don’t think I’ve seen white chain or any other angels express anything resembling sexuality.
We’re obviously seeing her express gender identity, which is radical for an angel, but I don’t think we’ve seen her or any other angels express anything relating to sexual desire yet.
Based on this panel?
I mean I wouldn’t be surprised if she fucked Allison at some point but there doesn’t seem to be any suggestion of that yet.
White chain’s expression in the 6tth panel
that’s all I need to know happiness exists
Is indeed adorable.
All faces in that panel are priceless, in fact. Allison’s expression in particular is very meme-able.
True, but Cio’s hair standing up in panel five is super cute.
Agrees us. But is still gigglin to Uncle Dustyarse scratchin his noddle.
Well, looks like they took the easy way out of this plot hole.
Ah well.
Whats the plot hole?
Oh, I’ve got it all over below.
Sorry, I’m working from the bottom up.
Thanks, Bob (takes a drink).
I think, working from the bottom up, that this is the last drink, or possibly the first one for you, depending on if you started with the oldest or the newest.
Also, glad to see you have no disagreements with what I’ve said over all.
Ch’ing-ch’ing
“Bored Troll is Bored.”
Hi, just hijacking this comment line to say YOU’RE ALL A BUNCH OF NERDS.
That’s all, I’ll be serving all these drinks people want. Carry on.
Summat dark, whatever tha’s got’ll be fine Trix.
Tell you what, you’re a black-souled one, I can tell. Have an UN Half Imperial, it’s a delightful, bourbon-aged chili stout. I have it in pints.
Oh. Actually I couldn’t agree with you less, as your head is filled with brown flame.
Not really though. White Chain’s retention of her angelic qualities plus Allison’s comment about her low body temperature probably hint at a deeper explanation for this in the (hopefully near) future.
Also, the fact that 6 Juggernaut Star has a similarly human visage in their true form might be strongly related to this. It seems like a tendency towards “humanity” is something that happens or has happened in more angels than just White Chain. It’s just that they generally seem to treat it as a malady, whereas WC’s acceptance of her condition indicates that this might be a relatively natural process under the right circumstances.
In hindsight, this has been subtly foreshadowed for a while. Just not with words.
I suspect WC feeling cold to be the result of the cold, white flame. Even the cool black flame isn’t as cold as the cold white flame.
This is my assumption, too. White Chain has had her shell of stone and metal replaced by a shell of meat, blood, and bone. Beneath that shell is still a contained nuclear explosion, versed in millennia-old martial arts.
Can it last? Regular angelic forms required maintenance, and Mottom has kind of shown that even with the power of a Demiurge, phenomenal cosmic power can get old.
If she goes boom, then that’s a bad thing.
If she doesn’t, then how much angel is actually left in there? Is she like a Hollow Devil, with a human form hollowed out and temporarily containing her flame?
Does her form change her spirit like a human?
Will she forget things like we do? Will her newly created subconscious mind shift her memories about? If her existence is a big ol’ magical lie, will she become, in the end, nothing but lies all the way down?
And that’s the actual serious questions that must be asked, this is before the shrieking and chanting about trans rights, which is already creeping up in this comment pile as well.
And people wonder why I worry.
Thanks, Bob (takes a drink).
Skal!
Does the new drinking game involve downing one every time one of Bob’s comments turns out to be a thin veil of logic over overwhelming fear? *takes a drink*
Are you just bored, Bob? Bored and trolling queer people on a queer-centric comic?
It saddens me that an actual honest critique gets labelled as trolling.
Sadly, blindly labeling things is the norm nowadays.
See how fun it is to be painted with the same brush you carry?
Characterizing stuff as “shrieking and chanting” isn’t honest critique. Seems a bit like blindly labeling positions you don’t agree with.
Interesting thoughts otherwise though.
Halfbeard has the right of it. You aren’t exactly using respectful, or even neutral, language. You can’t be inflammatory towards people and then expect them to be respectful and academic with you.
“Shrieking and chanting”? Heaven forbid that we should celebrate something that is 1) impactful to a lot of people and 2) really friggin’ badass. “Shrieking and chanting” is ENTIRELY unbecoming of An Intellectual in the tradition of the Protestant Humanist Intellectuals who most wisely and judiciously steer The Discourse.
No, we must engage in *sober reflection* (with, perhaps, a healthy serving of *indignation,* the only emotion befitting An Intellectual), as that is the only way to give proper respect to a comic featuring such characters as Princess Mamoru Moonshine Jagermeister Jack Jack Daniels Timothy Tim Bill Freddy Mercury Blueberry Luna, Esquire.
d o n t f o r g e t y o u r p a l , G o G a G o G
WHO IS A MASS OF SENTIENT WORMS WHO WILL EAT ITS WAY OUT OT ITS MANY HOSTS
h y u k h y u k
It seems much more an expected alteration on what an angel’s shell can be fueled by both foreshadowing and David’s key. The wings make me also just think that she’s got a shell of self love and slightly chilled meat instead of stone. Very much an angel but altered by a 7th of the name of God and some motivation.
More of using the whole Diamond word, and his sturdy and seemingly unaging body.
Still, can it last? And if it’s ignored, can it be seen as anything but pandering?
Thanks, Bob (takes a drink).
Not a problem, though it does make you wonder doesn’t it?
Why is there so little being said about what is quite obviously a major, major change in the story as written?
Other readers are not surprised by this turn of events — to them, it’s not a change at all in the story as written, but the fulfillment of seeds long planted. In what way is this a major change? How is it contrary to what we’ve been shown?
The simplicity of the name “Bob” is actually quite eldritch in itself. The trickster god Bob. It harkens back to the old internet, where, as we interacted and showed ourselves as we truly were, our simple names became charged with personality and implication.
It honestly strikes me as an in-world exploration of the phenomenology of Nephalim. It’s everyone else reading “trans” stuff into it, which is just human baggage. All angleology is clear that the ONLY angles to have a sexuality are Nephalim, which have several human traits. I’m tempted to think the author is content to let everyone draw their own conclusions while he explores this oft overlooked part of Angels from a new angle.
You’re asking if a natural progression of an obviously character’s arc will be seen as pandering to trans people?
It will, primarily by anyone who has an issue with trans representation. The rest of us will just enjoy it for what it is and then wait to see how it affects the story moving forward.
In other words.
Fuck, I hate it when a story does not speak about things I know and accept. I guess I have to make my point to people who do like it and clog their forum with self-referential arguments and more than a bit of arrogance until they answer and I can continue to deliver more arguments.
The circle.
Pure.
Infertile.
Is your party religion currently accepting new gods
Well, my party is, so come and see.
White Chain has been reincarnated more than any other angel. It’s possible that she is the first to undergo this metamorphosis because of it.
It’s not a question about looking human, or feeling human, but that in the beginning of this, when the story was fresh and exciting, the author had alien but distinct rules and kept to them.
Now this is not the case.
So, you had, and I quote, “All angels are the children of UN and have white-colored souls. Their bodies are made of energy, or controlled nuclear explosions housed in an armored shell.”
Okay, fine, cool. Got it.
Then you had Humans, which were made from the warm black flame, an inquisitive flame from YIS’ heart. Ashma forged them out of jealousy after Koss created the Servants.
Two different gods, from two different fundamental sides, making two different beings.
And now, apparently, through the first usage of the Black Arts ever by a non god, you have an angel turning into a human. Except that they aren’t, they’re an angel AND a human AND somehow not a nuclear bomb anymore.
So, instead of being a new form or style of Angel, possibly starting a third side that isn’t Thorn, you now have a super duper special, one-of-a-kind, woman, whose gotten their cake and eating it too.
6 Juggy having a human appearance? Who cares, White chain can’t offer a new perspective.
Delicious, who literally got beaten under the wheel of conformity? Who cares, White Chain’s a human, who’s also an angel.
You see this in stories that pain themselves into a corner, or dearly want to appeal to a vocal mob. It’s in anime, in serializations, in novels, and here.
In an ideal state, you’d have something more like this:
White Chain, having a single perfect breath as a human, then, *boom*. The flesh could not contain the spirit.
Thus, Solomon would have to give aid to grant the wish of the one who whupped him, but is no longer present.
Then you’d have Alice, who’d gone into the shade and drink-dueled with the devils, and literally changed Vladok into Princess, have to go into the Angel Penalty Box (APB™) and bust White Chain out, who had finally changed ITself into HERself.
Then you’d get the bit of White Chain actually getting to choose what her new shell would look like, and SHE could finally have a shell that fit her female flame.
That’d start a new side to the angels.
Not Concordant Harmonies, who stubbornly cling to the old ways.
Not Holy Thorn Knights, which is denial of their old duty, and as evidenced by 6 Juggy, denial of who they are inside.
But a new side, of accepting change, of growing into individuals, of being who you are.
Maybe recruit Delicious, or maybe even convince Juggy over a cup of tea?
Most people don’t remember Delicious, who had been advanced even further than White Chain had been.
Maybe learn the secrets of the nails that Jagganoth has hammered into his flesh.
But we can’t have that story now, cause of appeasement.
No doubt White Chain will be special and unique and totally be an angel and a woman and a human and all that, but that just throws away all that the others have fought for and suffered.
Gotta say, this is a pretty interesting fan-fiction version of events that haven’t even had the chance to happen yet. An honest critic usually waits till the story ends before nitpicking the plot, yes?
Not fan-fictioning Rud-Hud, more like theory-crafting. Basically a more traditional response of a journey story, which is what this has become.
From Earth to Throne, to the Shade, to the APB.
That’d be same sort of thing that was done in the Divine Comedy. I mean, this has Alighieri’s fingerprints all over it.
I mean come on, Solomon David? You toss a name like that out, you might as well throw in Dr. Acula as well.
And you do realize that you can nitpick a story in mid-series just fine, right?
Nah that’s absolutely fan fiction crafting. Pointing out that your ideas are just recycled from other greats just reinforces the fan fiction-ness of it.
Of course, what would be a surprise, and I’d be quite impressed if the author actually went this way, is if that isn’t White Chain, but something like what Honey Bunch and Sweetie Pie were, but the angelic equivalent. An Angel Hollow.
A fragment of the flame of White Chain, while the rest is in the APB.
I’d doubt it, of course. But if it did happen, I’m pretty sure I’m the first person to call it.
Hi Bob (again).
“A true ruler is a Wielder of Names. By Names she cuts the world as she pleases and she cuts herself into greater forms still. She is not shaped by the world, but instead becomes the Shaper.” (Book 3, 5-95)
I would remind you that the magic system in KSBD is quite literally bullsh*t. It’s lying to the universe to do impossible things (and the stories below the comics talk about many impossible things). White Chain did chose her what she looked like–she lied to the universe so well that it bent to her will nd became truth. This is fully in keeping with the rules of KSBD.
I would further remind you that the white flame and the black flame are much closer than they appear, as they were at one time the same thing: the body of YISUN.
I don’t think 6 Juggy is a great comparison–she is obviously not as far in her journey as WC, as when faced with the cycle, she chose to submit, not break (when she did break the cycle, she calls herself “foolish” and sees it as pointless, and in her most recent appearance she mocks WC’s hopes and sees the cycle as inevitable.)
Delicious is a good counterpoint, however. I would argue that the crucial difference (though we have very little info on Delicious) is that WC further acknowledged her own complicity in the system, and is fighting not only for herself but against the system. WC working to help other angels accept change and be who they are is not prevented by her apotheosis.
Finally–how does this have Alighieri’s fingerprints all over it? I am genuinely interested in where you see the similarities (though I will admit to only being familiar with the Divine Comedy). And even if they are very similar, Abbadon can choose to do things differently, right?
Thanks.
Hi 31Dragon, (again).
Now YOU are fun to talk with. I’ll happily keep this going with you as long as you wish.
Indeed, a good quote, for rulers. But Angels are Protectors who are a division of Sustainers. And early on we’ve seen both how hard -and how bad- it is for Angels to lie. And this is a pretty damn big lie.
And you forget, it was humans that made the masks for the Devils and at the very least maintain the shells made for the Angels.
And as for your unity of white and black flame, I went over it a fair bit below your statement with the cunningly named “A”.
But in short, cutting implies division, or the removal, not the addition.
White Chain cutting away the lies, the denial of who she is, or even the shell I’d agree, but this is skipping a whole bunch.
6 Juggy, Delicious, and 82WC, all three are aspects of the same single statement: I am a woman.
Delicious embraces it wholeheartedly, Juggy denies it and covers her form with layer over layer of denial, all the way down to her spikey spirit, and that denial leads to her taking the wheel to Delicious, and White Chain is in the transition (ha-ha! Double-Double entendre!) into acceptance of what she is and all that jazz.
And finally, I say Alighieri’s fingerprints, but that’s just cause his is one of the most recognizable ones.
Descent into purgatory, the shade place, though I admit the drinking battle was a great addition.
Decent into hell proper: The vaults. There’s a guide (Cio and eventually Yaba), all the forms of suffering and The Count.
In theory, there should be a march upwards, into heaven as it were, or at least the Angel’s Penalty Box (APB™).
At least in theory.
Of course, when you add Solomon Fricken David in, you start getting vibes of the Kebra Nagast big time.
Hence my ribbing of people with the two lines:
“a gigantic conflation of legendary cycles.”
and, “Of what doth the Glory of Kings consist?”
Them quotes seem mighty obvious in this third book, wouldn’t you say?
Thank you in return 31 Dragon.
How does one become a ruler though? I admit I have never understood the deep lore surrounding this comic, nor its inspirations. But this competition may be so rigid, as David is so sure he will not be defeated, that he made it possible to transfer this ruler-hood at the moment of winning.
Along with that, some cutting (or rather smashing) did happen of White Chain’s shell by David, as her exploding form takes on the rulerhood, as she breaks the rules of fighting form learning from the lessons of Allison.
That moment is imbued in breaking the cycle: there is no reason for an angel to be in that fight (breaking from their role) there is no reason for an angel to win that fight (accepting ruler-dom, breaking from their duty), there is no reason to use a reckless fighting form from Allison as it will surely lose (breaking from form and wisdom).
White Chain is already breaking away from, or cutting ties with, or cutting pieces out of their identity so intensely that their intention is to break the cycle xompletely, and once bestowed with/accepted/stolen ruler-dom that lie is given its fullest completion within their new powers in this new form.
At least I see it that way.
It is simpler than that.
To become a Ruler one must simply destroy the lie that they are not a Ruler.
You must kill the great enemy called “I,” by realizing that it never existed to begin with.
There is no I.
There is no Spoon.
There is only YISUN, and the multiverse is the infinitely complex fractal Lie he tells himself, because he contained the infinity of stories to tell, and had no one to else to tell them too.
I am, what the writer thinks I SHOULD be, because I write my OWN story, my own self, and my own destiny.
Trying to categorize things and set up divisions between categories is submitting to the Lie. Ignoring those rules and divisions is Royalty.
All things are a division of YISUN. This new AeonHuman is a grand creative synthesis of opposites. She, at once, more closely resembles the primordial divine while exploring something that has never existed before. What she amounts to remains, as yet, unclear. I remain hopefull.
Division is necessary that the parts may evolve separately, then a healing of parts is required to bring new meaning.
Thus was birthed the multiplicity.
The principle remains to this day.
John IG: Meti probably said it best, explaining it all, but there is a lot of interpretations on how to define it.
The most common are power and conflict. Intent isn’t needed, as noted by how the infinite vault kind of sustains itself by being itself.
Un-Fel: A person without a spoon though, has a tough time eating soup.
The Healer: the problem with division and cutting and all that jazz, is that if White Chain cut away to become human-ish, how much was cut away, and where did it go?
Though that implies that there could be two parts of White Chain, one part being the female, and whatever white flame could be sustained in a human shell, and the other part of White Chain, the Angel, genderless, and now perfected as Michael had hoped.
Thank you for bringing that revelation to my senses, quite the plot bunny.
But hear it now, with a date and time stamp, if the other part of White Chain becomes a villain, then you hear it first!
Dibs and all that.
Only until he realizes that his soup and the eating thereof are just part of The Matrix.
Only will matters, when there is no matter.
Perception is a matter of perspective, will is not.
Will is, in this universe, fulcrum and lever.
The Wheel turns by way of will.
Your version of the story sounds pretty boring and meandering. Lots of detours to come to a similar conclusion. This is more impactful and conveys the message better. Its also INFINITELY more suited to the pacing of a comic that updates two pages a week.
Also, you seem to be not so subtly suggesting that the story is suffering lately because of pandering to the “SJW agenda”, and if that’s the case, boy, oh boy, have you been missing the forest for the trees the entire time.
An invasion of “heaven” being boring and meandering? Eesh, I’d hate to see what else you find boring.
I mean, we got an epic Drinking Duel with the Devils. How hard can Nuclear White Flames party in response?
there’s no invasion of heaven, throne IS heaven, invading the void would not be so impactful, and it would be the same void where those devils where partying in. Even though I had to admit that’s where I saw SD and WC fight ending, with Alison having to go there to “wake her up” forcefully and maybe some of the other sleeping angels. I certainly like it better this way though and I’m eager to get the explanations. I am leaning heavily towards this being part of the “wish fulfilment” part of smacking Solomon in the face as most certainly a transformation like this was only possible with the power of GOD and not merely inheritors lying to the universe :/
Zoss already conquered heaven in the backstory.
Doing it again would be pointless, which is the point.
Bob thinks like a Demiurge. He needs to start thinking like a god.
Man, I hope I don’t think like a god, especially in a story with the catchphrase “Kill the Gods and topple their Thrones”.
Though that implies of course that the angels do not live in heaven at all, if they are separate from Throne, which is supposed to be heaven, or realm of the gods.
And doing it again is exactly the point of the wheel, the cycle, and all of that.
Zoss is trying to encourage Alison to break, or step outside, that cycle.
The “Gods” being toppled in the tagline ARE the Demiurges.
You’re seemingly missing a lot of the themes being set up.
One thinks one remembers reading somewhere that the title of this opus could just as easily have been something like “Kill Seven Demiurges”, but that that sounds rather tame compared to the six billion demons.
“Kill Seven Black Emperors”
Though at this point it might be closer to
“Reform Seven Interdimensional Tyrants”
I think it’s a misunderstanding of storytelling in webcomics. A story as complex as the one you describe would take literal years to tell adequately, and probably be as long as the comic to date.
This is how the story might have gone if events had obeyed all of the rules previously established. But following rules is not, as we all know by now, the path to true royalty.
A good point, but the problem is, how many things will have to break to keep this going.
Too much and things may become untenable. That’s what worries me.
Abaddon mentioned on Twitter that he’d been looking forward to drawing these pages for years.
Simply put, this was always the plan.
I rather think that’s the point. There are all these rules, and forms that have become established, but the first lesson is they aren’t true. Nothing is.
It is believed Angels are this, and Devils are that, and Humans this other, but it’s all assumptions based on the mistaken belief that what IS matters. Even down to all the Demiurges thinking Zoss’ heir is a man, everyone is acting according to the rules, instead of groking there are no rules.
I believe the reason Alison is the true heir is, at least in part, is she doesn’t know the rules and keeps breaking, or inspiring others to break, them. This is why the Demiurges never won, this is why things have become so static. I think even Zoss realized he was trapped within the bounds of his preconceptions. I mean look at how Incubus reacted to seeing him, even though he is dead. Death is only a limitation if you believe it is, at least according to Zoss. But immortal and powerful Incubus was downright shocked to see him return in any way, from death. Mottom fears it so much she built an empire out of running out the clock. I don’t think Yisun feared death…
Pondering what the consequences of this will be is interesting, but that the Cold White Flame, might be housed within a mortal (or mortal seeming) shell is not surprising to me. I think, it is possible, White Chain is now closer to a God, than an Angel. If that is impossible, it is one of the largest cracks forming in the foundation of KSBD’s reality. I think by the end, it will have likewise been shattered, and out of it will come something new.
I think this is not meant to end with the Hero of the Hero’s Journey, returning things to the status quo. To borrow from another silver haired protagonist (whom I hope gets her proper due in the medium she was born in) I think Alison is meant to “Break the Wheel”. Along the way many things that have been established as being impossible, are likely to manifest.
Indeed I must agree with you in at least part, as the Heroes Journey was intertwined with the Divine Comedy, and then the Kebra Nagast, when you had Solomon Fricken David tromping about.
Adding how much of Diogenes was put into Meti, and you see just how many tales are being cribbed from to make this thing.
The problem is, when you crib notes from things, you can read ahead a fair bit.
Hence my concern.
It is very interesting that you’re complaining about characters/concepts being cribbed to make KSBD while also venerating the Divine Comedy: a work of literature that straight up copy-and-pasted characters from Greco-Roman mythology, Homer’s epics, the Old and New Testament, world history, and contemporary 14th century Italian pop culture.
Do you think Alighieri should be concerned?
More importantly, will KSDB still be read and venerated 700 years from now, absent an establishment to shill for it? Because it bloody well ought to.
You’re concerned that you won’t be surprised, because you are familiar with the source material, and yet you complain when it deviates. All while proclaiming how surprised you’d be if the story went in the direction you predicted, or thought it “should” have gone.
Have you considered plumbing the story for meaning and value, rather than trying to police the author’s adherence to a bunch of rules and tradition?
There are rules, but they’re all lies, and thus they matter just as much as people believe them to be true.
Who cares about the universe’s rules the dude who wrote them was lying go pick up a football nerd
I believe I’m supposed to respond with “Yer maw’s a football.”
“yer maws a bawbag”
Thanks, Bob (takes a drink).
This taking a drink every time Bob blathers is about to make me barf.
Well then, let us do battle with your liver.
After all, if I’m that important to youse, I must step up.
Pander pander pander pander.
Ole!
Shut the fuck up
Steady as she goes Anti-me, one day the other one will drop.
Here’s to your inevitable fifth word in a sentence, and possibly a period at the end of it.
I know, I know, I’m dreaming.
Shut the fuck up, windbag.
Please continue, I love these reactions!
In what way is this pandering that your proposed “third way” where the angels embrace their feminine aspects, forms, and pronouns would not also be pandering to the same demographics?
In that it is the one that is happening.
I fuck your dad hard,
Remember to use protection!
Maybe Angel shells are akin to those of crabs? They start soft and fleshy before hardening into a protective carapace. White Chain is currently undergoing the ‘curing process’.
“…The author had alien but distinct rules and kept to them.”
I mean, interesting take, but this is also a world where part of the background lore is that at one point, an angry woman got so furious she jumped out of the world and saw the shape of the universe. (Or would have, if she had bothered to look.)
So, you know… your distinct rules have only ever been suggestions. They are intended that way. It’s not subtle.
I suppose I can’t help but feel that if immutable, unbreakable rules and systems are what you want out of this comic, you’re not in the right place.
But what I really don’t understand is, of all the hills to die on… you’ve picked the physiology of angels? That’s the thing that’s worth writing thirty comments about? (Of course thirty isn’t the actual number- it’s just where I stopped counting.)
–You see, this is why other commenters are suspicious of your real issue with all this, Bob. You’re all worked up about trivia, and instead of just saying “Eh, it just doesn’t work for me” and letting it go, you insist on clinging to it like a dog. Either you’re extremely pedantic (a possibility, of course), or your real grievance is with something else about this twist. I’m sure you can take my meaning.
It’s a pretty bad look, you know?
It’s not that disliking the twist makes you transphobic or something like that. It’s just that it’s reeeeaaaal suspicious that you can’t be satisfied with simply disagreeing, and that makes it hard not to draw unflattering conclusions about your character.
Your story is boring, Bob.
You’re missing the most important rule: lie to the universe with sufficient will, and it becomes true, even if it should be impossible.
I haven’t missed that, but you’ve forgotten what happens to angels that lie.
And if so, this is a big one.
When angels lie, their shells crack. White Chain told an absolute lie, and her shell cracked absolutely.
Have you been paying attention?
A bit more than crack, they start to break. They are rigid beings of duty and all angels were imprinted with Old Law.
What happens when flesh begins to break?
It’s not all beer and skittles left tit, also, your other half is down there
vvv
Reunite and become Aesma’s Dire Rack!
Thanks, Bob (takes a drink).
Not a problem. Have another, on me.
Angels crack and break when they lie. WC was literally falling apart as she was lying to the universe and being walloped. She bent the world to breaking point and what shattered in the process.
And the magic system is broken down to basically lying to the universe.
And being both a human and an angel, that’s a pretty BIG lie wouldn’t you agree?
What broke that we cannot see? And worse, what if in the next two books it’s just swept under the rug and ignored, then it most certainly remains a plot hole.
Were this a seven or eight book series, there might be enough time, but everything offered for one aspect explained will take away from another, and there isn’t much to go around.
The magic “system” is that wonders and miracles can actually happen if people want them enough — even individuals. It’s not something that you can nail down as pages of rules. In this sense, Broken Worlds is perhaps divergent from the KSBD comic. Bob, is your problem that the miracles in the comic mess up the RPG?
As to leaving things unresolved at the end, *of course* this is going to happen. It’s a rich world and there was never going to be comic space to deal with everything. We’re all going to have to deal with our favourite plot-thread dangling forever; I plan to spend the next 25 years fretting about it. The implications of White Chain’s transition are either plot-relevant, in which case we find out, or not in which case we’ll never know.
One saw no issue with a human body being able to host a Devil’s flame. One does not see why there should be an issue with what looks like a fully human body being able to cope with an Aeon flame, and the extra abilities the hybridisation has brought.
One’s siblings for the most part hold fast to tradition and stoutly rebuff change. Aeons have always had vessels of forged ash, ergo forged ash vessels are what Aeons do and shall always have. None have ever tried nor thought to try another vessel in the many kalpa since our conception. Until now.
But they’re all children of the two gods. That how is that a plot hole. I mean it would be different if if they have no relation but they do to Yis and Un. All children meaning they still have a source of energy . So the God who made Humans are separate yet still is Connect to the God who made the angles. Does that mean their powers would have a cross or counter effect if you will?
Technically they are all the children of One god if you wanna go that far back.
The big plot hole is that the division is really important. It’s how all the things got made. White and Black, Creators, and Destructors, Angels and Devils and the fragile fragile humans, splitting and resplitting ever finer, from the very beginning with one being becoming two, and the implication that bringing the opposites together should mutually annihilate or be incompatible.
In short, nothing wrong with an angel declaring itself (as they are genderless) female. 6Juggy and Delicious beat White Chain to that goal line way earlier after all. It’s the skipping of a whole bunch of intermediary steps along the way.
Imagine oil and vinegar not being a salad dressing or a marinade, but instead being used to “draw the rest of the fucking owl”, if you are familiar with the meme.
Thanks, Bob (takes a drink). And then another.
Don’t stop now, you need to keep going. How far can I push you?
Shouldn’t you be more worried about the fact that you have no friends? Or that you’re 60 pounds overweight, with pale acne-scrred skin? Or that mom’s going to kick you out of the basement soon?
Sick burn, mate. You really destroyed him with that one.
It’s not a plot hole. It’s a change in direction you had not expected. Don’t act like it’s an oversight, that’s what a plot hole is, it’s intentional.
You’re reading a story about killing the gods and tearing down their thrones. A story about a group of women in a world that calls true rulers “Kings”. In a world where the decaying corpse of the old, failed world and system is to be remade into something new and positive.
And your response…is that it is not traditional enough? That it does not hold to a religious dogma enough? How can you miss the point so much?
When you expand on the mythos of a world, you do not betray it. From early on angels have said there is a very real issue of becoming too human when they remain in the material plane too long. They tell White Chain she should stay in the void to fix her form. How did you forget everything Vigilant Gaze said to her when we’re first introduced to him?
You’re comparing metaphysical soul-fires to mundane oil and vinegar? Yisun, grant me patience.
Look, when Yisun split into Yis and Un they warred for a time but they also made love after, which gave birth to the other gods. Even if White Chain was no longer a White Flame (which she clearly is) it still wouldn’t be too conflicting elements. It would be in-line with canonical creation. Creation happens from the joining of the Black and the White, not from their separation.
It is a plot hole, or at least a massive retcon mid-third book no less.
It certainly is intentional, I’ll agree with you there, but to what end? I have a quiet fear that it’s a checking of a box, considering all the other ways it could have gone in its stead.
It isn’t about killing the gods, they are already dead, and the thrones are almost all but dust, save for the few the demiurges still sit upon.
It was division, unto division and so on down the way, ever more complex and refined as things are cut and divided.
My response is that it’s possibly being offered up a time when such things are screamed from the burning parallels of what we have right now. And if the parallels stand it’s a box being checked.
What point have I missed?
Yes, metaphysical soul-fires to oil and vinegar, I know, a bit on the nose, but it was that or some no doubt topical statement which would be even worse. The point still stands though.
Oop, missed the bit about the angels. The fear was of empathy, not of physical metamorphosis.
And yeah, Angels do explode in the world of Throne, or get a nail stuck in them and shunted back up to their penalty box.
And while we’re at it, I’ll add that Devils have a similar leash in that without their masks, which were also made for them from without, they could not be anything roiling masses of primeval chaos.
bob
u mad? 😉
( ͡°( ͡° ͜ʖ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)ʖ ͡°) ͡°)
Evidently the angels’ fear of empathy for mortals was not the whole story.
Obviously “division and separation are the natural order of things and this cannot be undone, but should rather be embraced” is not the moral the author meant to convey.
Maybe this just isn’t a story for you, and you’re not going to enjoy it.
You know? I’ve been reading a lot of give and take here, but the MST3K mantra forces me to place the most weight on the last paragraph of this comment.
Maybe this story just ain’t for you. It is a story, meant to be enjoyed. Maybe it’s where it is going, or maybe it’s how it’s getting there, but you don’t have to stick around if it irks you or you feel disappointed by it. It you do stay, well,
I insist, YOU GUYS ARE A BUNCH OF NERDS, DO YOU REALIZE HOW MANY WALLS OF TEXT YOU POSTED IN THIS COMMENT SECTION UN-DAMMIT I MEAN REALLY THIS IS NEAR UNREADABLE
Or write your own story that makes you happier, or at least meets your expectation for what a story should be.
The world needs more art, and we will celebrate your success.
… if we want to.
We might not.
We might not even hear of it.
🤷♀️
Fair. There’s other options, like ‘your story might be utter dreck, and there will be no success.’ I’ve got a couple of rejection letters that attest to the fact that telling a good story is hard!
But I’m trying to be positive here. Enough with the negative waves, Moriarty!
*happily sings Lied Die Forelle*
Shut the fuck up
I trickle from the bottom up, my dear anti-chum chum, and find you trickled all over.
And you highest word count as of yet. Four whole words!
Don’t get tired now.
But they aren’t implied to annihilate, they are shown to be highly synergetic. One became two, and after initial rejection they were found to be better together, the same cumulative value but now with two minds instead of one. So they split again and again from that point onward until the present. Both the theme of synergy in seemingly opposite forces AND the confirmed reality that white and black formed a stable entity at one point would indicate that opposites aren’t required to reject/annihilate under the existing rule set.
You’re on again with your “it’s SJW pandering” thing, I see. And once again, you’re projecting your assumptions onto the story to fit that narrative.
Of *course* she doesn’t know what’s happened, because *it just happened.* This does tend to be how science and history and the study of reality work– a thing happens, and then we pursue understanding of the thing, instead of expecting to simply understand everything immediately because we Are Smart or Are Authorities. Paradoxically, reactionaries tend to be first to jump on explaining something new, because they believe in their gut reactions and first assessments, as opposed to taking action to explore new possibilities and make considered judgments, which takes time. It is, again, quite liberating to admit that you don’t know something, and I would highly recommend that you give it a try. If you remove the pressure from yourself to Be Smart and have Instant Hot Takes because you Are an Authority, then you can find more enjoyment in the journey of *arriving* at understanding.
White Chain’s unique situation does not preclude her and her allies *coming to understand* that unique situation and then using it to provide an opening toward new possibilities. It seems like the thing that’s bothering you is that it isn’t actively happening *right now,* which is quite silly– progress doesn’t happen all at once, but does often include milestones that ought to be celebrated.
The entire significance of a moment like this is that it breaks the rules, and the implications of such a thing are never immediately apparent, but generally exciting. Abbadon has put in the work to craft a set of rules and thoroughly establish them, and thus is now entitled to break them, as any great artist often does. The problems you cite occur in slapdash stories that do not put in sufficient work to make the rule-breaking properly impactful. Particularly, slapdash writing fails because it fails to explore the implications of momentous changes or unique situations in the *aftermath* of those events– a crime of which we certainly can’t accuse Abbadon, given that the event only just occurred! And by your own admission, he’s never shown a tendency toward failures in thoroughness in the past.
In this world, it is very clear that sufficiently intense willpower, applied with extraordinary concentration toward an unwavering goal, is capable of warping reality– or have you not been reading all the blurbs about the various martial arts? What about the Red Art of Lying to the Multiverse? The demiurges’ mastery of their words and their worlds to the point of being nigh-unassailable, only to be quite assailed by our own protagonists? The world has rule-breaking *built in* to it. If you really can’t see that, then I’m pretty sure you haven’t been paying much attention; or rather, certain notions have taken root within you that *disallow* you from paying attention.
tl;dr If you gently brush aside your initial reactions based on what you *think* you know, you can enjoy the process of actually coming to know things.
Not “on again”, more still on my point, unchanged. And by that extension, you too are projecting your assumptions onto my assumptions. No dismissing me that easily now.
So, after that premise, you go onto disregarding what I’ve said without disproving me. Decent big syllable words, but nothing actually showing me the error of my ways. Still, decent spelling, punctuation, and all that.
See, I can trivialize you as well.
Now to the third paragraph, where you actually try to offer a counterpoint. You admit that she’s unique. then attempt to dismiss me again as silly, which is silly.
Now, as for the point of breaking the rules in your forth paragraph, yes, it happens. It’s happened a whole bunch of times thus far. Doing the impossible, messing with now four demiurges now, and it’s gonna keep happening. Do note that more and more of our old tales are leaking in, from a Diogenes expy, to chunks of the Kabbalah structure, to chunks of Sufism and cycles on time structures of kalpa and the like. But, more and more of it is coming in.
Yes, I find it neat that Abbadon is using our Zoroastrianism like it’s an ancient and corrupted variation of what really goes on in Throne.
But if you spot all these things, and then something like this happens, especially in these times, you have to wonder why.
Hear hoofbeats, expect horses, not zebras and all that. And with a name like Solomon fricken David of all things, well, thems pretty big and obvious hooves.
Would you not call this story “a gigantic conflation of legendary cycles.” Espiaraiti’i?
“Of what doth the Glory of Kings consist?” <– Hmm?
In short, try stripping away all personal critiques of me from your words and actually proffer your own insight.
tl;dr come at me brah! I did ur mum.
Your comments make me cringe in the third, fifth, and twenty-second ways.
Then grab your left tit and aim for the rest.
Paizuri 4 Life yo!
Found your left tit by the by, it’s up there a bit. ^^^
I’m sorry for the belittling language. It’s not very conducive to persuasion, and it was foolish of me.
I would, however, like to point out that I did not dismiss *you* as silly– I called your interpretation of a situation silly. This does make me wonder if, despite decrying what you might see as identity politics, you aren’t falling victim to issues of conflating identity and opinion yourself.
I can’t strip these issues out of my argument because you seem to be making a lot of logical leaps that rest in your assumptions, and seamlessly blending them with your argument such that we *have* to engage with them– so we must figure out where these assumptions come from, and why you cling to them so dearly. Given your previous remarks, it seems like you legitimately can’t imagine the story going in an interesting and satisfying direction from here, and given that you seem capable of imagination otherwise, it seems that something must be preventing you. So, we have to figure out what that is, if we’re going to get anywhere. This is why I’m trying to encourage you to examine the structures that currently bind you to your way of thinking.
I don’t see how the rest of your arguments follow from your starting point. What, exactly, about the themes and influences of the comic means that it MUST follow a particular framework in order to have merit? What about these influences means that they must be played straight and not subverted, and why is it not acceptable to break a cycle using unconventional means? And why do you insist on continuing to make this argument now, when the impact of this event has hardly begun to play out? If I’m understanding your argument incorrectly, then what are you ACTUALLY trying to say when you’re talking about the comic’s influences and references in relation to your objections?
My entire point is that *we don’t know* where Abbadon is going with this, because he hasn’t done it yet. I’m not trying to talk about the merits of where the story may or may not go (as we both agree that Abbadon is a capable and accomplished writer); rather, I’m trying to say that the place you’re *starting* your argument from doesn’t have enough of a solid foundation to build an argument on at all, which is leading this whole discussion down an intellectual dead end. I *can’t* engage properly with your arguments because if I tried to step onto your platform with you, it would collapse. I’m trying to examine the platform itself, which I think everyone– including you– would find to be much more helpful in the end.
Heroes journey is overrated.
Please smash the mold with your fist to create meritous & engaging word-works.
If it was just the Heroes Journey, I might agree with you, but smashing in the work of Alighieri, and the Kebra Nagast, into a mere five books, and things start to show the strain.
What’s with all the name dropping? Is it supposed to mean something? Are you accusing Abaddon of plagiarizing AND declaring it to be too different than said [book/author]? Has Abaddon explicitly stated that those works were KSBD’s inspiration or are you coming to your own conclusions?
As a side note, back in 2014 Abbadon wrote on the influences of KSBD vis a vis the writing:
“[…] Writing wise Kill Six Billion Demons is heavily inspired by Kurt Vonnegut, Clive Barker’s Abarat and Michael Kirkbride’s 36 Lessons of Vivec, for the Morrowind video games, which tangentially got me into reading Buddhist and Hindu philosophy and writing all the weird crap you find in the comic.
I have to also give credit to Requiem:Vampire Knight. It’s a French comic series with copious blood and boobies, but the art is unbelievable and the concepts are ridiculously goth/metal as hell. I’ll also mention the movie Mirrormask here along with a ton of Neil Gaiman‘s work because he is undeniable God-king of the modern/urban fantasy concept.
Though it’s not an influence you can just parse out immediately, influence from a lot of religions have been folded into the KSBD cosmology, most notably Zoroastrianism, Zen Buddhism, and Vedic Hinduism (there’s also some Abrahamic stuff if you look very hard).”
You’re so caught in in your Alighieri and Kebra Nagastyou’ve completely dismissed all of the Nietzsche and Bhagavad Gita, which are so essential to the context of this entire work. You’re so caught up in your Platonic Forms that there’s no room in your paradigm for “Something New.”
A literary tradition is not a line that stretches from Point A to Point B, it is an ocean that spans to the horizon in every direction, and dives to the depths of the abyss. You can no more encompass it than Abbadon, and yet you continue to insist that your understanding is so much more complete and meaningful than his.
That’s pretty sad.
Shut the fuck up
Hello anti-me.
Well, you are at least keeping the word count terse, which is not like me.
But then if you are the opposite of me that also makes you smelly, unattractive, and a man.
I’m absolutely dismissing you on the basis that you “dislike” what you perceive to be pandering to undesirable individuals. I don’t even care if your presumptions and your point about the story are correct: You’re still contributing nothing of value.
Well, he’s provided the forum’s youngsters with a viable example of poor, ideals-driven discourse. Other than that, it’s a clog in the comment lines, yeah.
Did you forget that servants are white flame wrapped in flesh? humans, devils and servants are all capable of manifesting a physical body (though admittedly, devil bodies are a lot more fluid than the other two), so if all three other races can manage it, why couldn’t an angel?
Tell me then Jason, have YOU forgotten that White Chain is considered a liquid angel? She hasn’t hardened to igneous, metamorphic, or so on? I haven’t, and I have no idea if that’s important, but, they’ve gone on and on about all sorts of things, and now things are being ignored.
Devils are pretty much chaos without their masks, Vladok being a pretty good example. And with HIM turning to HER, Vladok into Princess, they’ve shown just how flexible they are.
Devils and Humans though, they should be somewhat compatible. Devils feed on humans in all sorts of ways. Not only are they both of Black Flame, just of different intensities, but we’ve had multiple examples of Hollows going all the way back to the early days with the really early chapters. Extrapolating that a Mask could be used by equals wasn’t that hard to envision.
But Abbadon has worked hard to not only show that Angels are a big deal, but that they need a really sturdy shell to contain their forms, to even leave the APB.
White Flame, big nuclear booms when they break, Nails being special for them, the shell being repairable by craftsmen, all sorts of things really.
In short they are personifications of eternal and unchanging precepts.
White Flame and Black Flame. White Arts, Red Arts, and Black Arts.
I have no doubt that this change is going to stay, but that White Chain skipping a whole bunch of things doesn’t look good.
YISUN said, “Let there be no Genisis, for beginnings are false and I am a consummate Liar.”
Abbadon has been quite clear that everyone in this story is an unreliable narrator, including himself.
I suggest just sitting back and enjoying the story, especially since the rules are not actually set in stone. Remember, despite being a creature of the cool dark flame, Allison is practicing an Angel art.
Yeah, the mixing of bits has been happening quite a bit, but that doesn’t mean I can’t be worried about things.
It’s what I do really.
The big worry is that a lot could be lost if it’s for appeasement or checking of boxes, instead of being for the improvement of the story.
A question for you, fair Bookman; With White Chain getting everything that she has long sought and desired, what do you think will happen from here? Will she be able to endure pleasure where there was quite literally nothing before? Food, drink, sex, drugs, rock and roll. Being ill, getting older, having urges? Can she breed, be the first angel that can make more angels? There’s an implication that some angels are older than others, and not just by the numbers. With the gods gone, can there be more angels at all?
Bloody paradigms here!
This is a whole kettle o’ worms being opened, but the odds are that most won’t be covered properly, which is a damn shame.
That’s the worry. If this is just a box being checked, all of this will be waved off and ignored.
More angels, transitioning angels, angels possibly leaving their eternal frozen forms in the Angel Penalty Box (APB). A lot could happen.
But will it?
Abbadon has said there will only be 5 books, so you probably won’t get your answers. But it would be foolish to cling to that after pointing out that everyone with this story is an unreliable narrator.
It is an aspect of stories that introduce such large stories while being so short that there are always unanswered questions left. Even long epics rarely touch everything. Happily, this story has a solution. Just as a single god could not bring the Wheel into Form, there is more than one author to this story. If you wish to ensure that the conclusion of this battle does not simply tick a checkbox, then add a new chapter. Personally, I’m blaming a combination of factors, and positing that this is 83 White Chain, whose death took a drop of Solomon’s blood and the fire of his might, and forged it into a new shell of flesh. Patterned off the one who defeated her, after she spoiled his victory.
But who knows? YS-Voya is, after all, a flock of birds.
The fact that there are five books planned and we are nearing the end of the third is what worries me.
If it gets fleshed out, then it takes time and resources away from the other aspects of the story.
If it doesn’t, then it really looks like a checkbox being ticked, and wastes so much of the potential it could be extended to.
Push it to seven or eight books, then there’d be time enough that it’d be foolish not to examine it in detail and make it a worthwhile part of the story, but with so little left…
That’s what worries me.
You might want to double check your math. Take a look at the archive?
Goodness me, you are right, I miscounted.
If it’s five books, that’s even worse.
if the story is 80% done, then how much time can they put behind this without sacrificing the rest of the story or eschewing other more interesting aspects.
I must admit, I am a bit fatigued keeping up with Anti-Bob and the drinking fellow.
Tell me truly then Bookman; can you see White Chain being explained and fully utilized with a single book remaining?
I don’t think you need to have all (or even any) of that to not be “just ticking a checkbox”. Not everything is about politics: sometimes a kung-fu nuclear furnace golem pulling a pinocchio through sheer chutzpa happens just because it’s awesome. Unless you also think that the entire Grand Dragon Bank arc was a critique of Capitalism?
It could’ve been. Which just makes it cooler.
The bank was more of the Fourth Circle of Hell in the Divine Comedy, complete with a guide, and all the stages of greed shown.
Alighieri was really on display at that point.
You can allude to an older literary work without commuting to emulating every part of it exactly.
It’s the difference between stylistic reference an plagiarism.
This is how Star Wars sequel trilogies happen.
“ The big worry is that a lot could be lost if it’s for appeasement or checking of boxes, instead of being for the improvement of the story.”
Strange worry to have when the seeds of this development were sown almost from the first time we encounter White Chain. The foreshadowing only increased from there.
It’s quite obvious that her transformation was intended from the start. It’s an integral part of the story, not something tacked on. Even if the story goes to shit after this (which I don’t think it will), that would simply be bad storytelling, not the result of “appeasement or checking of boxes”.
YEAH.
We all know what’s really triggering Bob’ Troll Reflex.
His attempts to hide it, rather than stand on the courage of his convictions are what actually pisses me off.
Check out Bob who knows how this story better than the author AND better than people who have been reading and considering it for years.
Thanks, Bob (takes a drink).
Check out the aspiring alcoholic, who knows more than the fellow who knows more than the fellow, apparently.
I am curious, can anything but unquestioning blind praise be accepted by you, or will anything make you take a drink?
If so, I’ma gonna wreck ya liver!
Shut the fuck up
Woo, almost missed this one.
I think you are just copying and pasting at this point, which is a sound strategy, conserving energy and all that.
I wait with baited breath for you to actually proffer a counterpoint though.
But then that’s the problem with being ONLY my opposite, and not my Equal and opposite, now isn’t it?
Whilst there appears to be a lot more bob in the universe than anti-bob (for which there is no good explanation at all), one feels duty bound to warn everyone here to duck when the mutual annihilation and accompanying ionizing radiation occurs.
What’s tha baitin tha’s breath wi? Tha got summa Goggy’s worms?
“can anything but unquestioning blind praise be accepted by you”
It would be nice if you stopped stroking yourself silly namedropping classic inspirations without explaining why a deviation from them is bad.
It would also be nice if you stopped pretending White Chain being trans representation is some new thing added to “check boxes” rather than something pretty obvious and blatant since pretty nearly the beginning of the comic.
You’re coming across as pretentious and intellectually dishonest.
Pretention is often the shield of the intellectually lacking. Our friend Bob speaks with honeyed and eloquent words, but there’s ultimately very little beneath them. Sound and fury, signifying nothing.
devils and humans are black flame of different intensities, that is correct.
you know, like how servants and angels are different intensities of white flame.
there is no difference here. an angel hardening has nothing to do with this.
and yeah, angels being rigid and unchanging is repeatedly shown to have been WRONG. it’s why the story of prim’s comb is there, to show that angels are just as capable of growth and evolution as the other three races.
you clearly forgot how this story works, and personally, i think you’re just upset that white chain turned into a hot black lady.
ooof that last line wrecks haaaard
Okay boomer.
Get off mah lawn!
As long as you call her “that White Chain”, i very much doubt it is in fact you lawn.
The division between my lawn and yours is defined by a white Chain-link fence.
I just can’t take myself seriously with this mask on!
Indeed, things can be quite silly.
I’m surprised you didn’t comment about “cut the grass with a fish knife” and didn’t do a lawn joke.
For shame good sir!
I’m pretty sure angels used to have physical bodies that weren’t nuclear explosions. After all, the Primes grew.
They are stable in the Angelic realm, the APB, not the world of man, much like a man becomes see through and hazy in the shade realm.
Which implies that Throne possibly isn’t in the actual centre of things.
An interesting thought.
If humans can exist as meat in Throne, and the Primes could grow on Throne, that suggests that at least the Primes originally had stable meat bodies. I also seem to remember it being mentioned somewhere that man had exiled angels and then created the armor to invite them back, which suggests that something happened to make them need armor.
You say she looks human, but have you considered that perhaps she looks like a god?
The gods seem to have quite the consistent system in play, at least in this setting.
If she’s actually a god, then things are actually even worse than before.
Oil! What did banned boi prime say about my sisters?
That ain’t kosher!
Thanks, Bob (takes a drink).
Wait… this is in the middle here, I think you are drinking out of turn!
That’s gonna cost you a drink!
You also see it in stories that deliberately set up rules such that it’s meaningful and plot-driving when they’re broken.
You keep griping about how oh no, it’s something new in the story, this is something that’s not supposed to be a thing, and deciding that the only possibility is that Abaddon is a shitty writer throwing random crap at the fan base to make them happy is, frankly, a juvenile way of looking at things. This is a slowly-updating comic; you have no idea if they’re going to stick the landing of this twist and while you may guess or dislike the twist, the issue isn’t that other people don’t understand that this is a twist.
Just cause she looks like flesh and bone doesn’t mean thats all she is now my dude. This literally just happened, give it time for it to develop instead being reactionary and creating flaws from *literally* nothing
So, the whole narrative and emotional arc of the White Chain is about being something new. It is set up in most of her dialogue through her thoughts about angels and humanity, it surfaces in first ever conversation with her we’ve ever seen several years ago, in first other angel we see being a petal knight, someone fighting for the birth of the new, we had her boss, the remnant of the ancient times, banish her for being something different – and angel of human likeness – and execute the petal knight. We run from menacing thorn knights for several books, who are in their ideology the reaction to the new. We have White Chain cathartically changing her believes in this book, and we hear from an ancient angel that this is unique and is happening for the first time ever. And we know that a lot of things about angels come from their personality. their physical form cracks from telling a lie because their belief sustains their form.
The series was building to this moment since the first time we’ve seen her and never has abandoned this setup for as much as a chapter – and you’re calling this a plothole? Sorry to break this to you, but it is the plot – that everything changes, that one who relies on rules is blind and stupid. It is story of Alison, it is story of Cio, and it is told in every second religious scripture. If you think this world is based on strict rules then you’re wrong, and it is literally the moral of the story and has always been that.
you know it’s not a plot hole until it has been left clear that it will not be covered. for now it’s just a plot contrivance that, knowing Abaddon’s modus operandi, will be covered in either the next few pages or the next few chapters. Not every plot mistery is a plothole, some things are meant to be left unknown until the truth can be revealed in a way that better suits the narrative.
It’s true, that it could be covered, but the problem as it has been pointed out several times, is that if there’s only five books, will there be time?
If so, then it might take away time other things could have used, if not, then it’s possibly a box checked in the ol’ pandering pool.
Hence my apprehension either way.
*Hands the bottle to the drinking fellow.*
Take y’ shot!
given other exposition dumps, this could be easily explained in one page, even half if necessary.
Saw several of your comments about pandering and as many others I think they couldn’t be more out of place though. It’s pretty clear that this was the direction Abaddon wanted to take since the start and the direction the comic has been taking at least since wielder of names makes it clear that he wouldn’t be pandering to anyone but himself, this is the kind of comic that he wanted to write for himself :/
White Chain was always portrayed as trans or an allegory to that experience, so this is clearly not an unplanned derivation to pander to people.
Shut up
Aren’t you supposed to be like saying my words but backwards?
Or like Bizarro, or something.
Well, you are terse, taciturn, and don’t bother explaining why I should shut up, so technically you are the anti-bob in that regard, but try to work harder at it.
Shut the fuck up
Well, that certainly showed me.
Crtl-V for the time saving I suppose, but all those Captchas to process.
This one got tractors by the way.
So, the whole narrative and emotional arc of the White Chain is about being something new. It is set up in most of her dialogue through her thoughts about angels and humanity, it surfaces in first ever conversation with her we’ve ever seen several years ago, in first other angel we see being a petal knight, someone fighting for the birth of the new, we had her boss, the remnant of the ancient times, banish her for being something different – and angel of human likeness – and execute the petal knight. We run from menacing thorn knights for several books, who are in their ideology the reaction to the new. We have White Chain cathartically changing her believes in this book, and we hear from an ancient angel that this is unique and is happening for the first time ever. And we know that a lot of things about angels come from their personality. their physical form cracks from telling a lie because their belief sustains their form.
The series was building to this moment since the first time we’ve seen her and never has abandoned this setup for as much as a chapter – and you’re calling this a plothole? Sorry to break this to you, but it is the plot – that everything changes, that one who relies on rules is blind and stupid. It is story of Alison, it is story of Cio, and it is told in every second religious scripture. If you think this world is based on strict rules then you’re wrong, and it is literally the moral of the story and has always been that.
I swear to Christ we need to revoke “plot hole” from the internet for at least a year or two.
Not just because breaking “people in-universe didn’t think this was possible but it turns out it is” does not constitute a plot hole. Although, you know, it absolutely does not. It’s a narrative development. “The characters said ghosts aren’t real but now there’s ghosts, PLOT HOLE! DING!”
But also because this nitpicky obsessive way of consuming media and treating every narrative like a logic puzzle at the cost of narrative themes and character development is just poison for both consuming and making media.
The whole conceit of the setting is that clarity of purpose and understanding of self allows the impossible. White Chain’s whole THING for the entire runtime of the comic has been the struggle between the stagnant disconnection advocated by the Concordance and her connection and investment in the physical world and the people in it, which she had internalized as deviant and wrong. She had an epiphany and put it into practice, refusing to submit in the face of the impossible, and the result is self-actualization, as represented by incarnation into a form that is entirely hers and entirely of the world (rather than a constructed shell to hold herself). It’s internally and thematically consistent.
That is not a plot hole.
Other things that are not plot holes, for the record:
-Thing not being explained in excruciating detail, presuming the audience is capable of making basic inference.
-Characters not acting in perfectly optimal ways regardless of emotional state.
…I thought I’d have more but honestly those two cover like 90% of the “PLOT HOLE DING” complaints.
what a twist
Not gonna lie, I expected Lord Intra to beat the thugs to death with the rock.
Who knows? Maybe he kills the thugs and feeds their cooked flesh to the common folk.
I suppose that sometimes the simplest solution to a problem is not the best. 😛
I lost that bet too.
We all lost that bet.
There is still time that Intra turns to be just starting their joined funeral pyre.
10 Vigilant Gaze Purges the Horizon is reacting like an excited grandfather right now.
How wonderful, how rare rare, to witness someone’s first hug with skin that feels and bones that shake.
Wishes can come true!
Yoooo, she gets to keep the wings and stuff like that? That’s great.
Oh my god, White Chain must have used The Black Art to change herself! Reforming an angel is a pretty significant step there…
That is what the Wiki states has happened, though looking at the timing of the editing, I’m not sure if it was to explain without putting up an explanation, or not.
I recently reread the whole comic (incl. all lore), and I have to say the storytelling was soooo satisfying – all the little details about Prim’s comb, Het’s staff, etc. have so much more depths now, and even Leisure Kicks had a full-on exposition a long time ago.
Please keep doing what you’re doing. An awestruck reader.
pfft “is that possible” Cio asks with White Chain there, in the flesh. i feel like the next few pages are gonna have some interesting goofiness in them.
Even Cio forgets, the four order of inheritors are not the natural state of their materials. Each one was crafted by my brother Un-Koss, my sister Yis-Aesma, or the Concordance of Demiurges. Each one could have been made into something else.
Nevertheless, they are all still YISUN.
“Warning: may contain God”
On re-reading, not “Is that possible” but “How’s that possible”, i.e., “How can I do something similar”.
“How can I become the first being in the multiverse to bang a member of this species.”
The Body and Soul are One.
We have been gone some time…we last saw very shortly after The Devil Skinned Warrior; Alicio, had made her/their grand display. The trials have been long and many for all, and the blessing of watching this fight in rapid pace has been a balm to our return.
And somehow, 10 Vigilant Gaze is so motherly in this moment that he both crosses his arms and puts his hands on his hips, at the same time.
Truly, he transcends all gender norms.
in my time on earth, there is a certain sort of simultaneously avuncular and motherly gay, both frumpy and fashionable, stern and simultaneously playful. Maybe he’s one of those Gaze?
I find the forms of Fatherhood no less related to hands on hips, or the crossing of arms, and do them quite regularly. Everyone knows you have to make yourself appear larger when dealing with children, either to keep them from attacking you, or so they know you are great enough to encompass all their fears and worries, and thus keep those maledictions at bay.
Love how White Chain is wearing Coral Blue No. 2 semigloss lipstick in panel 4.
The image of White Chain expressing herself was amazing and everything, but I have to take a moment to acknowledge Cio’s tail in panel six.
Yeah, I see you, baby.
i’m begging you, please, please have them do a Predator handshake at somepoint
So. She can still use Krayu Mat, it seems. That is good: it will probably come up again in this story.
White Chain says VvmVvm
Readers hearts go Brrrpt!
So,
you could say
both are
aflutter 😀
Cio looks like she’s wondering about the possibilities of devil-human (or devil-angel or other) hybrids.
Ne’er underestimates Cio’s predilection…
You know I just assumed Intra was going to beat the bandits to death with the rock.
There’s more to the story yet, beating the bandits to death with the rock is still in the deck.
WC: *made of flesh*
Cio: “stoneyarse”
What, would you prefer “fleshyarse”?
That is… an incredibly good point.
Well, *I* prefer a fleshy arse, but you do you.
Hey, to someone like Cio, any lawful character is some measure of a stoneyarse.
“…Peaceful.”
“Impossible or not… you seem *better*.”
Like, this keeps hitting perfect trans narrative notes and I love it.
Whatever happens, I eagerly look forward to what comes next for White Chain and the rest!
There is a term for those who are both angel and human.
Nephilim.
And the power such beings can wield can be either radiant… or obscene. Only time can reveal which.
Nephilim, said to be born of the sons of God and the daughters of man. With her appearance similar to Solomon David, and her soul being born of the cold flame of Koss, this would be a rather fitting theory, a clever mind you have.
I see tif’aret, the sefira spanning both masculine and feminine aspects of god; the shortening of the way.