So, wait, has it been established whether Jag’s mouth moves when he talks? Especially with the seal, going through the last few pages I don’t see his mouth open at all. Definitely makes him creepier.
Actually, I hoped to see it already today and was shattered to realise that it’s not yet time. Though it seems that the appropriate moment is closer and closer.
i’m sorry, but when I see his collection of bedecked arms spreading out like that, I cannot help but hear the intro beats to “YMCA” kick in. Take a little of the menace out of the scene.
I’m a bit confused: if he’s done this so many times before, how does he expect that he will be more successful at making a permanent change than before? He always wins, but he always fails to prevent the wheel being reset to the same corrupted state as last time around. Does someone have to give him their key voluntarily for this to happen, and it never does?
Things are different this time- my guess is that he believes he can win either *because* of those differences, or because he is aware enough to try and win a different way.
I wonder…Did the past Time Resets of the Wheel of Existence result in
a different group of Seven Black kings ? Were there Seven Different Survivors of the Universal War ?
If it was the same Seven Demiurges, then despite all their powers they ALL should’ve been entirely blind to the TIME + Existential RE-SET.
What do the Thorns, Metatron, Zoss and Jagganoth have access to perception wise – that the other six Demiurges and Allison do not have ?
Jagganoth maintains HE returned each time. So far – no one disputes this.
And – How far back in Time was the Wheel re-set ?
What era or event was used as the RE-SET point ?
Plausible. But, alternatively, if the reset is to just before the choosing of the heir, then the current Seven are in there from the reset. If Zoss just wants to find the “right” heir, he doesn’t need to re-run the rest.
It seems likely that Zoss, Metatron, Juggarnaut, Jagganoth, and Jadis (her prophecy) are all aware in some way of the reset.
(…maaayyybee Delicious, if you count her comments before dying as being about the cycle resetting instead of her reincarnated as angels do.)
(Also, maybe Maya, and this is why she’s always drunk…she’s aware of the cycle and chooses to try to disrupt it by NOT being a demiurge this time around?)
Whether the others end up as demiurges each time or not is unknown.
If Maya is a demiurge in past cycles, but not this one, that would make Incubus a new demiurge this time around taking “her spot”. Maybe that’s why Jagganoth did a deal with him–Incubus was a new factor in this. You could maybe also argue that Incubus is the only demiurge that is “new” because Maya stepped aside and that would give him an entire new level of insecurity to his feelings about being a demiurge.
Honestly, I kinda get the impression that he DOESN’T really think he’ll succeed this time – at least, he’s not really very focused on that. Just like the other demiurges, he’s quite aware on some level of just how miserable and pointless his lifestyle actually is, but doesn’t have any willpower to make any serious attempt at breaking the cycle (in his case, a literal time loop, but the other demiurges all have their own vicious cycles they participate in). His token offer to Allison of “hey if you maybe just give me the key now I might let you live a little longer before I destroy the universe” has exactly the same kind of vibe as the hilariously one-sided tournaments Solomon hosts every once in a while: mere lip service to the actual reasonable course of action one should be taking, so that afterwards you can go right back to your old bad habits with the rationalization that “at least you tried”. And in Jagganoth’s case, that bad habit is just murdering everything in a big dramatic fight, thus ensuring that the universe gets reset once again. For all his talk of breaking the cycle or whatever, he is clearly having HELLA FUN just playing out the same old skull-breaking role.
What Jagganoth usually does is destroy everything after the Heir has already defeated the other demiurges. Apparently he does this on behalf of Metatron, or possibly is tricked into doing it by Metatron.
It’s unclear why the destruction is necessary if the universe is going to be reset anyway, but it may be that rather than being ‘rewound’ to some previous state, the universe is actually remade from scratch on the blank slate provided by Jag and then ‘fast forwarded’, or just left to develop in the same way as before.
Again, the reason for this is unknown but it may be that the previous heirs became corrupted in some way. After all, at least two of the demiurges have attempted to corrupt Allison and one of them succeeded (temporarily?). Certain major players have kept their true power and motivation hidden – Gog-Agog as the literal embodiment of a universal infestation may have been a consistent problem, and we have yet to find out the significance of the deal with Himself. Metatron and Jagganoth have more secrets too. I suspect YIS and UN are still around, but have forgotten themselves.
Metatron may be insane or just an asshole but he could also be more logic-driven, like a computer that keeps detecting an error and rebooting because it’s the only solution he knows. In any case Jagganoth has had enough so this time he has taken things into his own hands, aiming to take the key and go for another holy suicide instead.
My Thanks to 27 Brain Cells Speculating, Domini, Dr. M. Terrapin Wandering Bureaucrat, and Fool for sharing your speculations, thoughts and guesses to the puzzle Abbadon has presented.
Domini, I like your guess about Maya – if she were indeed aware of past endless cycles that would give her revenge seeking extra pathos. It would be very cool if somehow she had that extra awareness, but so far I’ve only had the impression that she had her fill of drinking oceans of blood as a hardcore Demiurge, quit the Overlord game and has waited countless years for the opportunity to put the hurt on Incubus for killing their master.
As for 23 Liminal Blossom Punctures the Heart of the Unrepentant, Deliciously, I went back to re-read the conversation [ Wielder of Names 2-19 to 2-24 ] and it appears to me that Delicious is speaking more about how both she and White Chain are among the more non-conformist Aeons. Delicious could tell that White Chain was on a path leading to more individuation rather than conformity – while Delicious had already rebelled once by becoming a Petal Knight. Delicious wasn’t sure that they would both resume the same path of individuation if they were “killed” and reincarnated – because Aeons lose part of their memory in that process. ( Anyway -that’s my take on that exchange. )
Dr. M Terrapin Wandering Bureaucrat – I agree with you that Jagganoth seems stuck. He has a bit more insight yet finds he is as trapped as anyone else.
Fool, I agree with you. Why is it even necessary for Jagganoth to clear the Wheel if it gets reset anyway. [ Might be necessary otherwise we’d miss out on all this Spectacular Confrontation – but is there some kind of Cosmic reason ? ]
This reminds me of one definition of insanity being “Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result.”
I also have speculated that YISUN exists on some timeless plane, and it seems even more likely that YIS and UN are out there -either asleep or dreaming. While their children, the creator-gods of the Multiplicity created the multiverse and self-annihilated in the process, I don’t recall any accounts that place Un or Yis into non-existence.
Agree that SOMETHING is likely to hatch out of Metatron who mos’ Def has motivations. Metatron : “Only 100,000 cycles of regeneration – THEN I’ll be BACK on my feet ! – AND THEN they’ll be SORRY ! MU-HA-HA !”
– or something similar.
More and more I recognize that some of these tale tellers are unreliable narrators, either in part or in whole. Abbadon has said a few times that unreliable narrators or incomplete understanding by the tellers is a feature of this EPIC.
I personally suspect that Jagganoth does not believe that this will be the time that things end differently, but I think that he does believe that he’s getting closer- My reading was that he believes Allison’s appearance is a symptom of reality fracturing, so if he keeps going like this, it will eventually break.
I think that he does not believe that Allison receiving the key holds any significance, and I think that he does not believe that Allison is responsible for things being different this time, or even that things are meaningfully different this time. He does not seem to have much faith in human agency, so it doesn’t seem to matter to him that Allison is a different person or that she has made different decisions than the heirs in previous cycles.
I think this is the best reading on his seeming obliviousness to Allison and her significance. He believes that his own cage-rattling is what has caused the “strange” cycle, and while the odd new things are a good sign that he’s making progress in cracking reality, they are insignificant in and of themselves.
I’m holding out for it being Mind as a twist. Jagganoth clearly spends a lot of time thinking as well as fighting, he’s probably a great strategist and tactician on top of being a soldier and he wears his mental convictions like armour.
I don’t know how Jadis would fit with the word Blade, but I’d still accept it alongside.
Quite possibly, the designs for many of the demiurges have varied a lot between our first glimpses and now!
Even if she wielded no physical blade, she could easily be equipped with swords of the more ethereal kind. At Mottom’s bidding she conjured up a kama sickle to use against Jagganoth earlier on in the fight. Wouldn’t shock me if Jadis’ sword is metaphorical and sharper than any other we’ve yet seen.
So, wait, has it been established whether Jag’s mouth moves when he talks? Especially with the seal, going through the last few pages I don’t see his mouth open at all. Definitely makes him creepier.
The red god needs not speek with a tongue of flesh.
Get the candy corn ready, it’s about to get diabetic in here.
SEPULCHRITUUUUUUUDE
Carve your pumpkins. Pull out you vials of Black Liquid Sorrow. And pose as a team, cause SHIT. JUST. GOT. REAL.
Can’t pose as a team when you have already absorbed your team via three-way fusion.
What pumpkin?
He’s all lit up like the 20th century fox logo
This is not a drill, guys. I have a feeling that, after thousands of years, the moment we have all waited for is at hand:
The Coming Of The Title Card
Actually, I hoped to see it already today and was shattered to realise that it’s not yet time. Though it seems that the appropriate moment is closer and closer.
Mind or Blade? – that’s the question!
i’m sorry, but when I see his collection of bedecked arms spreading out like that, I cannot help but hear the intro beats to “YMCA” kick in. Take a little of the menace out of the scene.
Perhaps he’s about to do that well-loved number, “You Must Completely Annihilate”?
Kill Six Billion Demonhead Mobster Kingpins.
I lost it at the problem sleuth reference too
Ahh, one of the few good moments of HomeSuck.
Enjoy my unpopular opinion
Early k6bd had a lot of HS DNA, so Abbadon is simply completing the circle.
^This.
Was not expecting even more mspa references in this comic, after peregrine mendicant…
I’m a bit confused: if he’s done this so many times before, how does he expect that he will be more successful at making a permanent change than before? He always wins, but he always fails to prevent the wheel being reset to the same corrupted state as last time around. Does someone have to give him their key voluntarily for this to happen, and it never does?
My own assumption is that he’s after Allison’s key for exactly that reason.
Things are different this time- my guess is that he believes he can win either *because* of those differences, or because he is aware enough to try and win a different way.
I wonder…Did the past Time Resets of the Wheel of Existence result in
a different group of Seven Black kings ? Were there Seven Different Survivors of the Universal War ?
If it was the same Seven Demiurges, then despite all their powers they ALL should’ve been entirely blind to the TIME + Existential RE-SET.
What do the Thorns, Metatron, Zoss and Jagganoth have access to perception wise – that the other six Demiurges and Allison do not have ?
Jagganoth maintains HE returned each time. So far – no one disputes this.
And – How far back in Time was the Wheel re-set ?
What era or event was used as the RE-SET point ?
I would assume that time resets to the point that metatron gave Zoss the keys, or somewhere thereabouts.
Plausible. But, alternatively, if the reset is to just before the choosing of the heir, then the current Seven are in there from the reset. If Zoss just wants to find the “right” heir, he doesn’t need to re-run the rest.
It seems likely that Zoss, Metatron, Juggarnaut, Jagganoth, and Jadis (her prophecy) are all aware in some way of the reset.
(…maaayyybee Delicious, if you count her comments before dying as being about the cycle resetting instead of her reincarnated as angels do.)
(Also, maybe Maya, and this is why she’s always drunk…she’s aware of the cycle and chooses to try to disrupt it by NOT being a demiurge this time around?)
Whether the others end up as demiurges each time or not is unknown.
If Maya is a demiurge in past cycles, but not this one, that would make Incubus a new demiurge this time around taking “her spot”. Maybe that’s why Jagganoth did a deal with him–Incubus was a new factor in this. You could maybe also argue that Incubus is the only demiurge that is “new” because Maya stepped aside and that would give him an entire new level of insecurity to his feelings about being a demiurge.
Honestly, I kinda get the impression that he DOESN’T really think he’ll succeed this time – at least, he’s not really very focused on that. Just like the other demiurges, he’s quite aware on some level of just how miserable and pointless his lifestyle actually is, but doesn’t have any willpower to make any serious attempt at breaking the cycle (in his case, a literal time loop, but the other demiurges all have their own vicious cycles they participate in). His token offer to Allison of “hey if you maybe just give me the key now I might let you live a little longer before I destroy the universe” has exactly the same kind of vibe as the hilariously one-sided tournaments Solomon hosts every once in a while: mere lip service to the actual reasonable course of action one should be taking, so that afterwards you can go right back to your old bad habits with the rationalization that “at least you tried”. And in Jagganoth’s case, that bad habit is just murdering everything in a big dramatic fight, thus ensuring that the universe gets reset once again. For all his talk of breaking the cycle or whatever, he is clearly having HELLA FUN just playing out the same old skull-breaking role.
What Jagganoth usually does is destroy everything after the Heir has already defeated the other demiurges. Apparently he does this on behalf of Metatron, or possibly is tricked into doing it by Metatron.
It’s unclear why the destruction is necessary if the universe is going to be reset anyway, but it may be that rather than being ‘rewound’ to some previous state, the universe is actually remade from scratch on the blank slate provided by Jag and then ‘fast forwarded’, or just left to develop in the same way as before.
Again, the reason for this is unknown but it may be that the previous heirs became corrupted in some way. After all, at least two of the demiurges have attempted to corrupt Allison and one of them succeeded (temporarily?). Certain major players have kept their true power and motivation hidden – Gog-Agog as the literal embodiment of a universal infestation may have been a consistent problem, and we have yet to find out the significance of the deal with Himself. Metatron and Jagganoth have more secrets too. I suspect YIS and UN are still around, but have forgotten themselves.
Metatron may be insane or just an asshole but he could also be more logic-driven, like a computer that keeps detecting an error and rebooting because it’s the only solution he knows. In any case Jagganoth has had enough so this time he has taken things into his own hands, aiming to take the key and go for another holy suicide instead.
My Thanks to 27 Brain Cells Speculating, Domini, Dr. M. Terrapin Wandering Bureaucrat, and Fool for sharing your speculations, thoughts and guesses to the puzzle Abbadon has presented.
Domini, I like your guess about Maya – if she were indeed aware of past endless cycles that would give her revenge seeking extra pathos. It would be very cool if somehow she had that extra awareness, but so far I’ve only had the impression that she had her fill of drinking oceans of blood as a hardcore Demiurge, quit the Overlord game and has waited countless years for the opportunity to put the hurt on Incubus for killing their master.
As for 23 Liminal Blossom Punctures the Heart of the Unrepentant, Deliciously, I went back to re-read the conversation [ Wielder of Names 2-19 to 2-24 ] and it appears to me that Delicious is speaking more about how both she and White Chain are among the more non-conformist Aeons. Delicious could tell that White Chain was on a path leading to more individuation rather than conformity – while Delicious had already rebelled once by becoming a Petal Knight. Delicious wasn’t sure that they would both resume the same path of individuation if they were “killed” and reincarnated – because Aeons lose part of their memory in that process. ( Anyway -that’s my take on that exchange. )
Dr. M Terrapin Wandering Bureaucrat – I agree with you that Jagganoth seems stuck. He has a bit more insight yet finds he is as trapped as anyone else.
Fool, I agree with you. Why is it even necessary for Jagganoth to clear the Wheel if it gets reset anyway. [ Might be necessary otherwise we’d miss out on all this Spectacular Confrontation – but is there some kind of Cosmic reason ? ]
This reminds me of one definition of insanity being “Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result.”
I also have speculated that YISUN exists on some timeless plane, and it seems even more likely that YIS and UN are out there -either asleep or dreaming. While their children, the creator-gods of the Multiplicity created the multiverse and self-annihilated in the process, I don’t recall any accounts that place Un or Yis into non-existence.
Agree that SOMETHING is likely to hatch out of Metatron who mos’ Def has motivations. Metatron : “Only 100,000 cycles of regeneration – THEN I’ll be BACK on my feet ! – AND THEN they’ll be SORRY ! MU-HA-HA !”
– or something similar.
More and more I recognize that some of these tale tellers are unreliable narrators, either in part or in whole. Abbadon has said a few times that unreliable narrators or incomplete understanding by the tellers is a feature of this EPIC.
“GLORY TO THE NEW FLESH !”
I personally suspect that Jagganoth does not believe that this will be the time that things end differently, but I think that he does believe that he’s getting closer- My reading was that he believes Allison’s appearance is a symptom of reality fracturing, so if he keeps going like this, it will eventually break.
I think that he does not believe that Allison receiving the key holds any significance, and I think that he does not believe that Allison is responsible for things being different this time, or even that things are meaningfully different this time. He does not seem to have much faith in human agency, so it doesn’t seem to matter to him that Allison is a different person or that she has made different decisions than the heirs in previous cycles.
I think this is the best reading on his seeming obliviousness to Allison and her significance. He believes that his own cage-rattling is what has caused the “strange” cycle, and while the odd new things are a good sign that he’s making progress in cracking reality, they are insignificant in and of themselves.
The Latin lyrics just kicked in in his boss music.
Estuans interis ira vehementi!
Sephiroth!
I’ve never been more embarrassed in my life than I was just now noticing the guitar riff from Ichigo’s battle theme in Bleach ran through my head.
I’m going to curl up into a ball and vanish entirely from existence now.
It was Limit Break X from DBZ Super for me
There is no need to be embarrassed. Your mind was merely tuned into the music of true Royalty.
It was Roundabout for me, my friend. And it’s not because I like prog rock, it’s because I like Jojo. No need for shame here.
“CRUSHED!
To the point of no return!
Beg for mercy, scum of Satan!
Lucifer’s a corpse in waiting!”
-Cometh the Hour Part A (Opus 1)
I hear the pipe organ but from Mister Crowlwy, but I met that song via Brutal Legend.
One of Us.
Sensing his impending demise, Jagganoth grows a few extra health meters.
okok i’m gonna go out on a limb and say this has something to do with the 20 iron feathers bestowed to him by that angel
Last call for bets: does Jagganoth bear the word BLADE or MIND?
I’m holding out for it being Mind as a twist. Jagganoth clearly spends a lot of time thinking as well as fighting, he’s probably a great strategist and tactician on top of being a soldier and he wears his mental convictions like armour.
I don’t know how Jadis would fit with the word Blade, but I’d still accept it alongside.
Wasn’t she depicted with a katana some time near the beginning of the series?
Quite possibly, the designs for many of the demiurges have varied a lot between our first glimpses and now!
Even if she wielded no physical blade, she could easily be equipped with swords of the more ethereal kind. At Mottom’s bidding she conjured up a kama sickle to use against Jagganoth earlier on in the fight. Wouldn’t shock me if Jadis’ sword is metaphorical and sharper than any other we’ve yet seen.
Honestly BLADE wouldn’t be the worst representation for Jadis, the one who has seen the true shape of reality.
Royalty is a continuous cutting motion.
ENRAGE TIMER
Look at the fingernails. Jagganoth becomes a lady I bet
Merges with Juggernaut Star and Himself in a devil’s 3-way
Hang on a dang second. Are those CRACKS in Jadis’ ice block?? I think I might have an alternate idea on whose hands those are…
Aye.
The wrist guards have Jag’s symbol on them, though
Jadis’ glass block has always been cracked like that, though supposedly it’s indestructible.
From the Upanishads
TWENTIETH KHANDA.
‘When one attends on a tutor (spiritual guide), then one believes.
One who does not attend on a tutor, does not believe.
Only he who attends, believes.
This attention on a tutor, however, we must desire to understand.’
‘Sir, I desire to understand it.’
***************************************************************
From the Upanishads
TWENTY-FIRST KHANDA.
‘When one performs all sacred duties, then one attends really on a tutor.
One who does not perform his duties, does not really attend on a tutor.
Only he who performs his duties, attends on his tutor.
This performance of duties, however, we must desire to understand.’
‘Sir, I desire to understand it.’
Turns out, this isn’t even related to Jaggernutter’s martial arts, he just happened to stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Cue “KILL BOSS”
Fighting without a motive speech: I sleep
Fighting after motive speech: REAL SHIT
Hopefully between all of them, no-one forgot the candy corn.
As soon as someone pulls out the gravity girdles, I’m out
Goddamn, that alt text hit exactly the vibe I was feeling. Hopefully Jaggy’s got some diabetes.
Nope, that was not even his final form.
No one seems even slightly curious, while I wonder… Is it sorrow on Aspected Chaos’ face, or despair?
I choose to interpret it as pity.
No one likes a braggart, Jagg.
This man straight up looks like Molag-Baal now, even acts like him!