Still a master of Ki Rata. But one who has, perhaps, at long last, learned the lesson his teachers failed to pass on.
Only took him a few thousand years.
Solomon may not be a Demiurge now but he’s still the Grandmaster of Ki Rata, having slaughtered all of the previous masters. He survived fighting Jagganoth. He dealt with large numbers of “thieves, throatcutters, and warlords” at his present abode. So he’s capable of chewing bubblegum and kicking ass…and he’s all out of bubble gum.
Man, ‘This is incredibly fucking pathetic for White Chain.’ She started off so noble and wise, demanding Solomon share his power with the people. But now? It’s like watching a toddler throw a tantrum, asking him to take back what he just handed over.
With all that time and god-like power, you’d think White Chain could’ve done a lot more for Solomon’s people. Teleport to another universe under her domain, feed her people, rebuild infrastructure, find capable administrators – the whole deal. But it seems she’s fixated on a small group of friends, which isn’t cutting it for all those people in dire straits.
I mean, think about it. Even the Roman Emperor Augustus faced wars, famines, and political turmoil but still managed to make life better for the Romans and bring about a period of remarkable peace. So, what’s White Chain’s excuse?”
White chain is no longer a standard angel, bound by rigid purpose the way they used to be. She is more human, and such can have clouded judgement, and a weakness for folly.
This is exactly how Solomon got started. Problems need to be solved without keys or you end up with a society entirely dependent on some dude with a key being in charge. That’s the entire point.
So you want her to do same exact thing as Solomon did? Also it was the Roman empire caused all those famines, wars, and political turmoil, so fuck that argument.
Emperor Augustus did deal with one famine and had to handle six civil wars during his power struggles. But here’s the thing – he turned things around and kickstarted the longest era of peace ever. So, dismissing that with a “stupendous ignorant presentism” argument is not fair.
“But here’s the thing – he turned things around and kickstarted the longest era of peace ever.”
There was barely a year when he WASN’T at war. He was the end of the republic and he also instituted the praetorian guard which was to become the bane of the autocracy. What kind of idiot simps for Octavian? He’s dead, “Caesar”, he’s not going to make you proconsul.
He was having consistent wars through conquest after he became first citizen “princeps.” (Tell me which civilisation had a utopian, kumbaya-type society in antiquity?) There weren’t any wars within the territories of Rome just those on it’s borders.
“He was the end of the republic and he also instituted the praetorian guard which was to become the bane of the autocracy.”
Let’s not forget that the late Roman Republic was already facing significant challenges, like the Marian reforms and deep-rooted corruption. Augustus aimed to address these issues and stabilize the Roman world, which helped Rome endure longer in the face of the Republic’s fall.
As for the Praetorian Guards, they did pose issues for the empire, but their influence was later curtailed, notably by Constantine the Great. He not only handled the Praetorians but also played a crucial role in the empire’s longevity. His decision to shift the capital to Byzantium, now known as Istanbul, was a strategic move that contributed to Rome’s lasting presence even after the Western Roman Empire fell. So, it’s a complex mix of challenges and solutions that played into the Roman story.
“What kind of idiot simps for Octavian? He’s dead, “Caesar”, he’s not going to make you proconsul.”
That’s the weakest comeback through insult. Here let me show you how that can be twisted into another way. ‘What kind of an idiot simps over his mother? She,s never going to make you her favourite child.’
I like Augustus and Roman history. Nothing wrong with that. It isn’t Nazi worshiping. It’s a by gone age that can be fascinating to appreciate and compare to many things.
“I like Augustus and Roman history. Nothing wrong with that.”
But not such as to catch the joke in the username? My apologies, Caesar. Didn’t mean to offend.
Mass oppression and killing anyone who dared speak out against him is a funny way to think about peace. Also that’s not even true. He invaded multiple places as emperor, norther Spain, Germany, and the Alpines.
Besides the whole point of what White Chain is doing is to move away from the authoritarian kings and do something new. She does not want to be anything like Solomon, she wants to do better and has made that extremally clear from the moment we first saw her in this chapter. Hell from the moment she first became human.
Augustus didn’t exactly play the bad guy to regular folks in Rome. He did, however, give the boot to those shady senators who were all too happy to mess with the Roman soldiers, grabbing their lands and replacing them with slaves.
But hey, let’s not forget that back in those days, everyone and their cousin seemed to be on the conquest bandwagon. It was like a big trend—tribes fighting tribes, kingdoms duking it out with their neighbors. So, when you think about it, those places Augustus went after were all part of the conquest party.
Under Augustus’s watch, things were relatively chill in the Roman provinces, except for the Iberian Peninsula, which was a bit of a hotspot. It took some time, but they eventually brought it under control during his reign.
And, yeah, we can’t really judge folks from way back when by today’s moral standards. They were building the world that eventually led to our cushy lives (well, in some parts of the world, at least).
That is the dumbest shit I have ever heard. Augustus did not give the senate the boot, the senate existed until the fall of Constantinople over a thousand years later. And no not everyone was on the conquest bandwagon, otherwise we would see way more empires at this time in places like Germany and Britain. And we most certainly can and should judge people based on our morality, the “tHeY wERe FrOm A DiFFeRent TiMe” is just lazy.
The angels were not meant to rule. She’s been an enforcer this whole time. Her purpose was to keep the laws and punish the criminal. She doesn’t even understand how to lead, let alone how to RULE, and rulership requires many things that someone who values their honor and purity cannot commit to. She’s having to choose between betraying who she’s been for literal eons vs. betraying people she’s never met and doesn’t care about individually, but wants them to be safe as a whole.
The quickest way to end this internal feud is for Solomon, the best ruler among the Demiurges, to take back his key and throne. So she’s desperately clinging to the idea that he must do it because currently she doesn’t believe she can rise to the occasion and never wanted to do so in the first place.
Not to mention, rule by a single benevolent and immortal being is the greatest form of governance, where they’re trying to build democracy in a collection of 111,111 universes that has far too many people to work, far too many ideas and cultures to ever agree on much, and many warlords-in-waiting who are going to start causing trouble now that a supremely powerful ruler is no longer on the throne. Not to mention even if they do get it sorted there’s going to be all sorts of corruption as people try to slowly maneuver presidency towards becoming the crown again, and have their own faction permanently take the seat and make it a throne once more.
It cannot reasonably work with this many people involved. They need an invincible ruler who cares about their safety and health, protecting their society and hearts, minds, and bodies.
I get the concern that White Chain’s been all about enforcing the rules, not making them. But hey, she’s been through a lot in the story, and she’s learned a thing or two about leadership along the way. Her strong sense of honor and purity can be her compass in a leadership role.
Rulership doesn’t mean she has to toss her values aside; she can use them to guide her decisions. Stepping into a leadership role might be a natural evolution for her character, and it could lead to a more fair and just kind of governance that balances her personal values with the greater good.
PS, My bad if it came across like I was pushing for a full-on democracy. What I meant is that White Chain could bring more people into her team, not just stick with her close buddies. It’s about expanding her advisors beyond the inner circle, which seems like a smart move in such a huge multiverse.
The “immortal benevolent ruler” is a toss up. On the one hand, we see Raiden and on the other we see Solomon. (Benevolent hands-off rule vs benevolent hands-on rule.) In the few tiny situations where I’ve had ruling authority (staff stuff, homeowner (or primary renter) w/ roommates), my hands-off approach has had long term positive results, but really messed up short-term ones.
She never asked he share his KEY, she asked him to share his POWER. She wanted democracy- a government ruled by the people. Not by a despot with a seventh of god’s name in their head.
What’s bugging me is that it seems like she hasn’t really made an effort to help the people. She hasn’t given democracy a shot or tried to pick the right folks for the job; all she’s done is a bare minimum job of just shifting her role to her friends.
She has tried to give democracy a shot: she realized very quickly that too many of the Celestial Empire cling to an emperor. Further, White Chain does not possess the skills to govern a country. She is a warrior and lawman. She never wanted to rule, and upon being demanded to rule as heir to the throne, she ineffectually tried abdicating to others.
Nyave has been repeatedly and overwhelmingly elected as factotum because White Chain endorsed her, and because she does not run herself. You’re right- we haven’t seen much of White Chain rebuilding the empire, and that’s because her unwillingness to accept the mantle of leadership seems to have extended toward being the sole executor of such affairs. It seems like she definitely could have done better- that’s the joy of characterization! I disagree with you, though, that her response here is pathetic.
The crux of the issue is that the “godlike powers” afforded by the key are overwhelmingly geared toward committing incredible acts of violence. She’s attacking him because he forced a weapon of mass destruction into her head, thereby marking her as heir to an unwanted monarchical empire that oppressed millions, and is rather understandably pissed about him ditching all of his problems onto her. How much she is at fault for not fixing all of the enumerable problems of the Celestial Empire is another question.
yeah man just completely transition from an absolutist monarchy to a democracy while under threat of cosmic annihilation, even as you’re being attacked by the forces of Incubus, in what, like 3-4 years with no problems, while being metaphysically not even built for these kinds of things
also nevermind the fact that they have actually organized multiple elections and mounted defenses against the forces of Incubus, so I don’t know what you’re talking about.
She never wanted to have Solomon’s key. She wanted Solomon to liberalize his empire and step down to allow his people to rule themselves. Solomon gave her his key because he saw its power as a burden, because he’d seen what White Chain only saw in the last few years – that some people *demand* to be ruled by a tyrant. She doesn’t want to become that, so she wants him to take the key back.
Sorry for making it sound like I wanted a democracy, that wasn’t my intention. I just wanted to point out my frustration that she didn’t seem to put any effort in selecting the right people to help her run things while she uses her god like powers to run things forward, help defend the people, try and gain needed resource through teleporting into her 111,111 universes that has an abundance of those resources.
PS I see your point that Solomon might wanted to show white chain the burden of ruling. But having a tantrum and wait g 3 years to find the guy when you could of at least tried to help the people rather than throw a tantrum is my frustration.
I didn’t mean to push for a full-blown democracy, that’s my bad for making it sound like that. My point was more about White Chain expanding her circle of help beyond just her friends.
My frustration is she had years, like, plenty of them, but she didn’t do much except pass on her admin troubles to her friends. It feels like she could’ve been way more proactive.
Sure, there’s an apocalypse looming, but why not make an effort to help the people rather than waiting around for decades and then suddenly deciding to hunt down Solomon for help? It’s like, why not try to evacuate folks from Solomon’s crummy domain to a better place? Or, get cozy with some of her enemies’ followers who are fed up with their god and could work as mercenaries, or just hire some warriors to defend the people. She’s got god-like powers, so there’s more she could do than just posing as poster face for her buddies.
Going out to find the guy who ditched his people seems like an odd choice. What’s that gonna do except bring back a tyrant who oppressed his people again? Then have a tantrum when your time could’ve been way more productive.
I’m gonna be honest, I don’t think she knows how to rule. She’s been a servant entity for thousands upon thousands of years. It’s ingrained into her soul. She’s been desperately doing what she can to help, but the lack of guidance, of president, of forging ahead into unknown waters, of making decisions that could very well be utterly wrong and detrimental. That’s not her strong suit.
Shure, she will probably learn to lead one day, but that takes time. And that’s if she diddnt have to also get accustomed to her new physical form, along with dealing with the universe being burnt down and the threat of its igniter reappearing and annihilating them an day now.
We are quick to give people shit for not living up to our expectations, or doing the perfectly logical thing with 0 effort or doubt, and just ignoring all the “unimportant” things surrounding them. It’s real fuckin easy ain’t it?
White Chain isn’t just your average high school kid with a small project to worry about. She’s a god with some serious powers and a lot on her plate. Given what she’s capable of and the huge challenges in the multiverse, it’s not unreasonable to expect her to use her abilities for the greater good. So, while we shouldn’t demand perfection, it’s fair to hold her to a high standard given her divine status.
1000s of years as an angel a few decades as a human angel hybrid, fucking god. Better step your game rather than weak ass tantrum.
Really rethink these timelines; it was four years, not a few decades. She’s been human-esque for four years. She had to discover EATING.
Think about what it must be like to have a huge shift into having ANIMAL HORMONES after thousands of years without. Full of a mix of the white flame and human drives to cause your anxieties.
She’s effectively going through the first angelic puberty ever with no one having done it before, all with the weight of an already collapsed and fragmented empire placed on her shoulders.
What she wanted was for Solomon to allow power to move beyond violence, because however ‘benevolent’ he was he was also a weapon of mass destruction telling his people “You can have this power when you can take it from me; otherwise trust me to make all decisions and keep you safe.” His biases, over generations. His passive aggression, over centuries. His implicit threat, over a myriad.
White chain is very clearly not a god. She’s a small time cop with integrity who can now shoot nukes out of her pinkies, and now you expect her to go and fix a multiverse scale problem on top of empire that got it’s sole pillar yanked out from underneath her.
Demiurge keys are merely weapons, and you can’t expect a weapon solve governance issues, no matter what a chinese or a roman dictator might say.
You’ve complained about things White Chain hasn’t done, but you’ve been making some fallacious assumptions. First, you’ve talked about things she hasn’t done as a ruler, as though she assumed a throne but has been derelict in its duties. You make reference to getting people to “help her run things”. She HASN’T been running things, as she has deliberately refused a position of leadership. This is not a dereliction of duty, as she never wanted nor accepted such a position. She wanted someone(s) other than Solomon to rule, presumably someone more capable of it than he. That was never going to be her, and she has done her best to get the people to pick people other than her, despite their attempts. When the people choose you to lead them, but you know you aren’t equal to the task, you’re not being irresponsible when you refuse the role, you would be irresponsible if you ACCEPTED it. Similarly, she has wanted as little as possible to do with the process of selecting leaders, so it’s not fair to lay at her feet the blame for not expanding leadership past her circle of friends.
Second, you mention “her 111,111 universes”. We already heard that Solomon’s empire immediately collapsed into civil war. She doesn’t control those universes, and the Republic might not control even ONE universe.
Third, you mention some things that she could have been doing to help using her Key, but you’re forgetting something. For thousands of years she has existed in the culture of a cultivation setting. She might literally not know that the Key can be used for humanitarian purposes; it’s entirely possible that as far as she knows, the most benevolent use of such power is keeping the peace, like she had been doing for thousands of years. Remember, this is a cultivation setting, it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that as far as most people in setting are concerned, the only uses of fantastic magical power are destructive ones. You mention rebuilding infrastructure, getting resources from other universes, and more, but I don’t recall a shred of evidence that anyone has ever used their magic for those things, so it might not have occurred to anyone that it’s possible. As far as I recall, the tradition of powerful warriors using their magic powers for benevolent purposes ended with the Gods creating the 777,777 universes. Keep in mind, when I say “benevolent purposes”, I’m not talking about killing the wicked. That’s all over the place. I’m talking about the things you mentioned, like building, farming, etc. We’ve seen some healing arts, but we don’t have any indication that White Chain could just… start healing people. Further, I don’t think the people in-story have any such indication. The Factotum mentioned White Chain refusing to touch her power, but that’s ambiguous. It’s entirely possible that nobody even considered non-combat uses for the Key, so it’s not fair to blame White Chain for not using it for that.
Fourth, you talk about White Chain’s attempts to get Solomon to give up his power, then her pleas for him to take it back. Others have already mentioned this, but it’s still important: The powers involved are two different things. She wanted him to give someone else (not even her) his POLITICAL power, IE the rulership of his territory. Her forced on HER his MAGICAL power, the Key, the word Diamond. She wants him to take back the KEY, not the throne. She wants this because she never wanted the Key, and thus doesn’t want to use it. I suspect this is because she’s an Angel, and could already defeat anyone weaker than a Demiurge (or possibly a Sword Saint). Thus, she already had all the power she needs, and the Key is entirely excessive, only making people more afraid of her.
wow, immagine being handed over god-like powers and a multiverse-spanning empire that has just receved milions of deaths, lost the ruler that found the empire thousands of years ago and is currently at war with another multiverse-spanning empire that is more prepared for war overnight while not having asked for it and NOT solving every problem in the span of 3 years while dealing with that, the death of a dear friend, the disappence of another, your whole body changing compleately and having to 100% relearn how to live… what a pathetic looser am i right?
that’s how you sound, and to be honest you can take your augustus and put it in the same situation and get the same results, the roman empire is slightly a few thousands of universes smaller than this empire
I mean…the whole point is that these expectations on White chain are completely unrealistic.
What she’s been doing is both perfectly in character and completely realistic given the situation. The fact that they’ve been able to salvage ANYTHING is a massive victory on its own.
Could they have done better? Yes…but that can be said of just about every single person in this comic. Personally I’m sick and tired of mary sue characters who are super geniuses who can fix every problem in just a few issues and somehow are capable of planning for every possible political contingency (thanks Japan). It’s refreshing to have characters that are competent yet flawed.
Also as has been pointed out: Augustus was literally groomed by Caesar as his replacement, he had plenty of advisors, experts, and allies to assist him in governance (currently only Nyave has any expertise), and he did not have a massive world ending threat breathing down his neck with no possible solution in sight that is further compounded by an army many times the size and strength of his own nation (Thorn Knights) with a far more experienced godlike general (Incubus) who can solo armies ALSO breathing down his neck.
Seriously…the closest analogue to this would be if Augustus had to save Rome after everyone saw Jove get absolutely bodied by Dazhbog (in an event that razed the capital to the ground), then Horus raises a massive army in Northern Africa and starts conquering and pillaging left and right, all of Rome’s provinces have been plunged into chaos, instead of being the favoured nephew of the previous autocrat he was instead just a really good cop who had iffy relations with his coworkers, not to mention he had to spend most of his life as an animate construct of Vulcan but is now a human demigod with all the fun feelings and sensations that entails, OH and he just saw Hercules (Allison) supposedly die in combat with Dazhbog despite being aided by nearly the entire pantheon and he knows Dazhbog is gonna bust out at some point and probably burn down anything he manages to fix/build anyway. Alright Augustus you got IV years don’t f*** up!
Like…seriously bruh. Sure he was one of the better rulers throughout history but there is a time and a place for your rome boner and a cosmic godly epic saga with universal stakes and a COMPLETELY different situation is not that place…
User
This person is making in my point of view a poor argument against Augustus reign of peace. Can you argue against this statement.
“Mass oppression and killing anyone who dared speak out against him is a funny way to think about peace. Also that’s not even true. He invaded multiple places as emperor, norther Spain, Germany, and the Alpines.”
ChatGPT
You can counter the statement by highlighting the complexities of Augustus’s reign:
Augustus’s Reign of Peace: You can argue that Augustus did bring about a period of relative stability and peace to Rome after the turmoil of the late Roman Republic. While there were instances of oppression and punishment for dissent, it’s important to note that during his rule, the Roman Empire experienced a prolonged period of internal peace and external expansion.
Political Realities: Emphasize that Augustus faced numerous political challenges, and maintaining his authority often required measures that might seem oppressive to some. Augustus believed that his rule was necessary to restore order and stability to Rome.
Military Campaigns: Regarding the invasions mentioned, point out that many of these military campaigns were motivated by strategic or defensive considerations. The expansion of the Roman Empire was not necessarily inconsistent with the goal of maintaining peace and security within its borders.
Historical Context: Remind that assessing historical figures and their actions should be done in the context of their times. Augustus’s methods may seem harsh by today’s standards, but they were not unusual in the context of the Roman Republic’s transition to the Roman Empire.
In summary, while Augustus’s reign was not without its flaws and controversies, it is a matter of historical debate whether his actions can be seen as a net positive or negative for the stability and prosperity of the Roman world during his rule.
User
Was Augustus oppressive to the Roman people or just the Aristocrats of Rome?
ChatGPT
Augustus’s rule involved a mix of policies and actions that affected different segments of Roman society, including both the aristocracy and the general population.
Aristocrats: Augustus did take measures to consolidate his power, often at the expense of the traditional Roman aristocracy. He implemented various political reforms and reduced the political influence of the Senate. Some aristocrats who posed a threat to his authority were either exiled or had their powers curtailed.
General Population: On the other hand, Augustus also introduced several reforms and initiatives that aimed to benefit the general population. He implemented policies to improve the legal system, infrastructure, and public welfare. He took measures to ensure the security and stability of the empire, which would have been of benefit to the average citizen.
In summary, Augustus’s approach was a blend of political pragmatism and an attempt to maintain order and stability in Rome. While some aristocrats faced oppression or loss of influence, his reign also brought certain advantages and a sense of security to the broader population. His rule is often seen as a complex mix of authoritarianism and governance, making it challenging to categorize it as strictly oppressive or non-oppressive to any single group.
User
Did he oppress the ple s?
ChatGPT
Augustus’s rule involved policies that were designed to maintain social order and strengthen the Roman state, and these policies could have had varying impacts on different segments of society, including the plebeians or common people. Some actions and policies that could be seen as potentially affecting the plebeians during Augustus’s reign include:
Taxation and Tribute: Augustus implemented tax reforms and imposed a more organized system of taxation. While this might have been a financial burden, it was also essential for funding the Roman state and its various initiatives.
Grain Distributions: Augustus continued the practice of providing free or subsidized grain to the urban poor, which helped ensure their loyalty and well-being.
Public Welfare: He initiated various public works projects and provided for the repair and construction of infrastructure, which could have improved living conditions for some plebeians.
Legal Reforms: Augustus introduced legal reforms that aimed to protect the rights of Roman citizens, including plebeians, by providing them with a more stable legal framework.
It’s important to note that the plebeians were a diverse group, and the impact of Augustus’s policies would have varied based on individual circumstances. While some plebeians may have experienced hardship or changes in their status, others likely benefited from the stability and prosperity of the empire during his rule. Augustus’s governance was a complex mix of policies, and whether he oppressed the plebeians as a group is a matter of historical debate.
User
What did Augustus did to the alpines?
ChatGPT
Augustus, as part of his broader expansionist policies, conducted military campaigns in the Alpine regions. His main objectives were to secure the northern borders of the Roman Empire and establish control over the areas inhabited by various Alpine tribes. These campaigns are often grouped under the term “Alpine Campaigns.”
The Alpine Campaigns involved a series of military actions and conquests in the Alps and surrounding areas, primarily in modern-day Switzerland, Austria, and parts of the Alpine regions in northern Italy and southern Germany. Augustus aimed to consolidate Roman control in these regions and ensure the safety and stability of the northern frontier.
The specific actions and campaigns during Augustus’s rule in the Alpine regions might not be as well-documented as some of his other military exploits, but they were part of his broader efforts to expand and secure the Roman Empire. These campaigns contributed to the Romanization of the Alpine territories and their integration into the Roman administrative system.
User
When was Hispania fully subdued by rome
ChatGPT
The Roman conquest of the Iberian Peninsula, known as Hispania, was a gradual process that spanned several centuries. The subjugation of Hispania began in the 3rd century BC and continued well into the 1st century AD. The timeline for the full conquest of Hispania is as follows:
Punic Wars: The Roman Republic’s involvement in the Punic Wars (264–146 BC) with Carthage led to the initial Roman presence in the Iberian Peninsula, as they sought to gain control of key regions from Carthaginian influence. The First Punic War saw the Romans establish their presence in the eastern part of Hispania.
Romanization of Hispania: Over the next century, the Romans gradually expanded their control westward and southward, Romanizing the local population and establishing control over the various regions of Hispania. This process was not without resistance from local tribes.
Cantabrian Wars: The final major military campaigns in the conquest of Hispania were the Cantabrian Wars, which took place between 29 BC and 19 BC. These wars aimed to subdue the Cantabri and Astures in the northern part of the Iberian Peninsula. The campaigns, led by generals like Augustus, eventually resulted in Roman control over these regions.
So, by the end of the Cantabrian Wars in 19 BC, the Romans had largely subjugated Hispania, marking the effective incorporation of the Iberian Peninsula into the Roman Empire. It’s important to note that while the major military campaigns were over, the process of fully integrating and Romanizing the entire region would continue for many years, and regional uprisings and resistance could still occur.
User
Was emperor Augustus oppressive and tryantical?
ChatGPT
Assessing whether Emperor Augustus was oppressive and tyrannical is a matter of historical interpretation and debate. Augustus, who ruled from 27 BC to 14 AD, played a pivotal role in the transition from the Roman Republic to the Roman Empire. His reign was characterized by a complex set of policies and actions.
Here are some key points to consider:
Political Reforms: Augustus implemented a range of political reforms to stabilize the Roman state, often at the expense of the traditional Roman aristocracy. He reduced the power of the Senate, established a system of imperial succession, and concentrated significant power in his own hands.
Militaristic Expansion: While Augustus was responsible for expanding the Roman Empire through various military campaigns, some of these campaigns may be seen as aggressive rather than purely defensive.
Social and Economic Policies: Augustus introduced policies to benefit the general population, including grain distributions to the urban poor and public welfare programs. These measures were aimed at promoting social stability.
Legal Reforms: He introduced legal reforms to protect the rights of Roman citizens and ensure a more stable legal framework.
Cultural Patronage: Augustus was a patron of the arts and culture, promoting the “Pax Romana” (Roman Peace) and encouraging a period of flourishing literature and architecture.
Augustus’s rule can be seen as a mixture of authoritarianism and governance aimed at restoring order and stability in the Roman world after the tumultuous late Roman Republic. Some argue that his actions, such as suppressing political opposition and concentrating power, were necessary to prevent further civil wars and maintain peace. Others view his rule as oppressive due to the concentration of power and the suppression of dissent.
In summary, whether Augustus was oppressive and tyrannical or a stabilizing force in Roman history is a subject of historical interpretation. Opinions on this matter may vary among historians and scholars.
User
Write this better.
Augustus wasn’t oppressive to the people of Rome. He made a purge and oppressed the corrupt Roman senators who were more than happy to fuck over the Roman legionaries by buying their farm lands and fill them with slaves.
And I did say his only wars are ones of conquest. Every other civilisation was doing the same at the time. Not at the scope of Rome’s extent but the same. All this places you mentioned are of conquest. There are no other nations who weren’t raiding, raging war on each other. Tribes attacked other tribes. Kingdoms wage war on their neighbours.
The province’s of Rome were at peace. The only place of unrest was the Iberian Peninsula which led to it’s final conquest in the north of the peninsula under Augustus.
Remeber judging the past with today’s morals is redundant. Since everything came before us helped build up our privileged state of life (not everywhere of course.)
ChatGPT
Augustus’s approach toward the people of Rome wasn’t necessarily oppressive. He took measures to cleanse the ranks of corrupt Roman senators who were exploiting and mistreating Roman legionaries, particularly by seizing their farmlands and replacing them with slaves.
It’s worth noting that during Augustus’s time, the pursuit of conquest was a common practice among many civilizations, though the scale of Rome’s expansion was notable. Wars of conquest were prevalent, and various tribes and kingdoms engaged in conflicts, often attacking one another or their neighbors.
Under Augustus’s rule, the provinces of the Roman Empire generally experienced a level of stability and peace, with the notable exception of the Iberian Peninsula, which witnessed ongoing unrest culminating in its final conquest in the northern regions during Augustus’s reign.
It’s important to keep in mind that assessing historical figures should be done within the context of their era, rather than imposing today’s moral standards on the past. The actions and policies of those who came before us, like Augustus, have contributed to shaping the world we live in today, which is marked by various privileges and challenges.
User
Re write than in a casual tone
ChatGPT
Augustus didn’t exactly play the bad guy to regular folks in Rome. He did, however, give the boot to those shady senators who were all too happy to mess with the Roman soldiers, grabbing their lands and replacing them with slaves.
But hey, let’s not forget that back in those days, everyone and their cousin seemed to be on the conquest bandwagon. It was like a big trend—tribes fighting tribes, kingdoms duking it out with their neighbors. So, when you think about it, those places Augustus went after were all part of the conquest party.
Under Augustus’s watch, things were relatively chill in the Roman provinces, except for the Iberian Peninsula, which was a bit of a hotspot. It took some time, but they eventually brought it under control during his reign.
And, yeah, we can’t really judge folks from way back when by today’s moral standards. They were building the world that eventually led to our cushy lives (well, in some parts of the world, at least).
User
What’s the expression of kicking the hornet’s nest?
ChatGPT
“Kicking the hornet’s nest” is an idiom that means to do something that stirs up trouble, provokes a strong reaction, or initiates a series of problems or conflicts. It’s often used to describe actions that may seem harmless or insignificant on the surface but result in significant negative consequences or a strong backlash.
User
Write this internet comment better.
I’ve kicked the hornet’s nest here. But hey I still fill the same. (There’s going to be another set of comment of lectures isn’t there from random strangers)
ChatGPT
I might have just stirred things up here, but you know what? I stand by my views. (I can already picture more unsolicited opinions coming my way from the internet’s finest armchair experts.) 🙄
User
Make a strong argument against this.
I mean…the whole point is that these expectations on White chain are completely unrealistic.
What she’s been doing is both perfectly in character and completely realistic given the situation. The fact that they’ve been able to salvage ANYTHING is a massive victory on its own.
Could they have done better? Yes…but that can be said of just about every single person in this comic. Personally I’m sick and tired of mary sue characters who are super geniuses who can fix every problem in just a few issues and somehow are capable of planning for every possible political contingency (thanks Japan). It’s refreshing to have characters that are competent yet flawed.
Also as has been pointed out: Augustus was literally groomed by Caesar as his replacement, he had plenty of advisors, experts, and allies to assist him in governance (currently only Nyave has any expertise), and he did not have a massive world ending threat breathing down his neck with no possible solution in sight that is further compounded by an army many times the size and strength of his own nation (Thorn Knights) with a far more experienced godlike general (Incubus) who can solo armies ALSO breathing down his neck.
Seriously…the closest analogue to this would be if Augustus had to save Rome after everyone saw Jove get absolutely bodied by Dazhbog (in an event that razed the capital to the ground), then Horus raises a massive army in Northern Africa and starts conquering and pillaging left and right, all of Rome’s provinces have been plunged into chaos, instead of being the favoured nephew of the previous autocrat he was instead just a really good cop who had iffy relations with his coworkers, not to mention he had to spend most of his life as an animate construct of Vulcan but is now a human demigod with all the fun feelings and sensations that entails, OH and he just saw Hercules (Allison) supposedly die in combat with Dazhbog despite being aided by nearly the entire pantheon and he knows Dazhbog is gonna bust out at some point and probably burn down anything he manages to fix/build anyway. Alright Augustus you got IV years don’t f*** up!
Like…seriously bruh. Sure he was one of the better rulers throughout history but there is a time and a place for your rome boner and a cosmic godly epic saga with universal stakes and a COMPLETELY different situation is not that place…
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It’s crucial to recognize the context and complexity of the situation faced by White Chain and the expectations placed on her character. While it’s true that her actions align with her character development and the dire circumstances she faces, the issue isn’t solely about her competence.
The real concern lies in the broader narrative, not necessarily in making her a “mary sue” character who can solve everything effortlessly. The frustration expressed is more likely a reflection of the overall pacing and storytelling in the comic. It’s important to remember that a character can be both competent and engaging without having to possess superhuman abilities or always succeeding without challenges.
While comparing White Chain’s role to a hypothetical scenario involving Augustus is intriguing, it’s essential to recognize that different narratives have different tones, themes, and requirements. Augustus and White Chain are characters in separate stories with unique contexts. The critique appears to be aimed at the storytelling choices rather than the characters themselves.
Ultimately, discussions about storytelling in comics should focus on pacing, character development, and plot progression rather than the degree of realism or superhuman abilities. These elements contribute to the overall enjoyment and engagement of readers.
User
Did Julius Caesar groom Octavian?
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Yes, Julius Caesar played a significant role in the early political career of Octavian, who later became known as Augustus. Octavian was Julius Caesar’s grand-nephew and was adopted by Caesar in his will. This adoption made Octavian his heir and marked him as the designated successor to Julius Caesar.
Julius Caesar had plans for Octavian to play a role in the post-Caesar political landscape, which included consolidating his own power and reforms in the Roman Republic. After Caesar’s assassination in 44 BC, Octavian emerged as a key figure in the ensuing power struggle and civil wars. He ultimately succeeded in establishing himself as the first Roman Emperor, effectively ending the Roman Republic and beginning the era of the Roman Empire.
So, while Julius Caesar didn’t live to see Octavian become Augustus, he did play a pivotal role in setting the stage for Octavian’s rise to power.
User
Did he ever personally mentor him
ChatGPT
Julius Caesar and Octavian (who would later become Augustus) did not have a close personal mentorship in the way a teacher might instruct a student. Their relationship was more that of family and political alliance.
Julius Caesar did recognize Octavian’s potential and adopted him as his heir, which was a significant political move. This adoption marked Octavian as Caesar’s preferred successor and set the stage for Octavian’s political career. However, their interactions and guidance were likely more influenced by the political and familial context of their relationship rather than a formal mentorship.
It’s also important to note that Octavian received guidance and support from various other influential figures during his rise to power, including his alliance with Mark Antony and the support of military commanders and advisers.
User
Where did octavian go after he sailed to Hispania to see caesar
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After Octavian sailed to Hispania to join Julius Caesar during the civil wars, he did not immediately return to Rome. Instead, he continued to serve in Caesar’s campaigns. In 45 BC, after the victory over the Pompeian forces at the Battle of Munda in Hispania, Octavian accompanied Caesar back to Rome.
Upon their return, Octavian’s political career continued to evolve, and he became more involved in the political affairs of Rome. His relationship with Caesar’s former allies and opponents, including Mark Antony and the Senate, would play a significant role in the complex power struggles that followed Caesar’s assassination in 44 BC. This ultimately led to the transformation of Octavian into the central figure in Roman politics and, eventually, the first Roman Emperor, Augustus.
User
When was it revealed that Caesar adopted Octavian as his son
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Julius Caesar’s formal adoption of Octavian as his son and heir took place in his will, which was made public after his assassination in 44 BC. It was only after Caesar’s death that the details of his will were disclosed, and Octavian’s adoption was revealed.
The announcement of Octavian as Caesar’s heir and the publication of his will had significant political implications and marked the beginning of Octavian’s rise to power in the complex and turbulent political landscape of the late Roman Republic. This event played a crucial role in shaping Octavian’s political career and eventually led to his transformation into Augustus, the first Roman Emperor.
User
Write this better, in a casual tone.
If you know your late Roman republic and early Roman empire history. Then you should know that Guias Julius Caesar didn’t personally mentor Octavian. He adopted him as his heir in his will, which was discovered after Caesar’s assassination. Caesar was impressed with Octavian, when Octavian travelled to the Iberian Peninsula during Caesar’s last year’s of his civil war. He arrived after the battle, planing to joining in the beginning but wasn’t able to make it in time because his ship was wrecked. Never the less Caesar was impressed. When Caesar returned to Rome with Octavian, Octavian soon traveled to Greece to finish his education and military training. Caesar at this time was in Rome being assassinated. So there wasn’t any grooming at all.
As to Augustus not dealing with a world ending event. That’s not entirely true. Sure he wasn’t dealing with existence literally ending with the extermination of the multiverse but he was dealing with a tired, broken, Roman republic that seems to be on it’s last set of legs of survival. He had to deal with 6 civil wars (after the largest civil war Rome’s had.) the last being more of a hybrid war of a civil war and war with another nation. He had to deal with a starving Italia provirence (pretty much Italy) during one of these civil wars. He was facing the challenge of all he knew of the world and civilisation he lived in to crumble to dust and had to deal with it. He made many mistakes in such dire times in the beginning but later on turned out on top on the end. He wasn’t a great general, actually far from it as he had no interest in battles at all. He relied and chose a great general and his friend, Agrippa. (That can be compared to white chain in the opposite aspect. She could better choose her administrators while she stays as a great general or force to recognise.)
Augustus had to deal with Mark Antony as a general in his last “Civil war.” But he had to deal with the incredible, genius ruler Cleopatra the 7th (Last Pharo of Egypt ) backing up Mark Antony with her massive resource of Egypt.
If you know some of the events during this part of Augustus life then you can see it’s incredibly well comparable from a dying Roman republic and the end of their civilisation and a apocalyptic scenario. It’s obviously not as grand as the end of existence but it is comparable.
And I mean come on there’s no real harm in comparing similar things. You don’t need real historical figures have to deal with kung fu fighting gods, you can exchange the physical and magical might of gods to compitent generals with powerful armies. There’s no harm in that. This isn’t your or my comic book creation. Don’t get too but hurt from criticism.
ChatGPT
If you’re into your late Roman Republic and early Roman Empire history, you might already know that Gaius Julius Caesar didn’t exactly play the role of a personal mentor to Octavian. Instead, he adopted Octavian as his heir through his will, which only came to light after Caesar’s assassination. It’s interesting how their paths crossed, though. Octavian actually went to the Iberian Peninsula during Caesar’s final years of his civil war. He had plans to join the action there, but his ship ended up taking an unexpected detour courtesy of a wreck. Talk about bad timing! Nevertheless, Caesar was pretty impressed by Octavian’s gumption.
Once Caesar and Octavian got back to Rome, Octavian didn’t just kick back and relax. He headed to Greece to round off his education and military training. Meanwhile, Caesar was dealing with the not-so-pleasant experience of being assassinated in Rome. So, you could say there wasn’t exactly any grooming going on.
As for the idea that Augustus didn’t have to deal with a world-ending event, well, it’s a bit more nuanced. While it’s true he wasn’t dealing with the literal end of existence, he was facing a pretty rough scene in the Roman Republic. It was like watching a dying man on his last legs. Augustus had to contend with not one or two, but a whopping six civil wars (after Rome’s biggest civil war, mind you). One of those wars left Italy starving, which wasn’t exactly a walk in the park. He basically had to navigate the world he knew falling apart at the seams.
Augustus wasn’t exactly your go-to general either; battles weren’t his thing. He leaned on the prowess of his buddy Agrippa, a great general. This dynamic, in a way, could be compared to White Chain’s role, where she might excel in her battlefield expertise while having to rely on capable administrators.
Oh, and let’s not forget about Mark Antony and Cleopatra. Augustus had to face off against this dynamic duo, with Cleopatra and her mighty Egyptian resources backing up Mark Antony.
So, if you dig into the events of this part of Augustus’s life, you’ll see it’s got its own kind of apocalyptic vibe—a crumbling Roman Republic and the potential end of their civilization. It’s not quite the end of the universe, but it’s a comparable ordeal.
Comparing similar scenarios can be a thought-provoking exercise. You don’t need to have real historical figures duking it out with kung fu gods; you can translate the epic might of gods into competent generals leading formidable armies. There’s no harm in that. Remember, this isn’t your or my comic book creation, so let’s not get too bent out of shape over criticism.
For real nobody is reading an ai generated wall of text you Clueless twat. At this point we should probably report you for clogging up the comments section with massive ammounts of garbage text. I cannot comprehend what is going on in your head, but after looking over your actual posts, I assume some degenerative learning disability is involved.
Yes indeed. Comparing things can be a useful thought exercise.
But holy shit dude…This is no longer a thought exercise. This is an obsession. This is a problematic obsession. If you were genuinely engaging in historical discourse on a forum for it or writing a paper for college I would commend you but gawd dayum son…I told you…THERE IS A TIME AND A PLACE.
Consider that White Chain would probably loudly and publicly agree with you. She’s a creature of order and instruction, and has spent 81-and-change lifetimes following a code of law to the letter. People like that tend to think about law as a un-changing imperative. Not something they personally make up themselves.
She literally had power for all of five minutes before she vehemently refused it and demanded to be told what to do and where to go. I mean, come on. Even if you buy into the lie that she’s not actually empress of her nation, she’s still the leader of their armed forces. And yet she has a patrol route.
A PATROL ROUTE.
When’s the last time you saw the Secretary of Defense doing a security check of the White House perimeter. Because that’s what White Chain spends her time doing. If that’s not the angelic, Assigned-Cop-At-Birth equivalent of a cry for help, I don’t know what is.
She’s not cut out for this and has told everyone within earshot. It’s just that they don’t actually care.
She’s not off on some world building bridges and settling order because nobody has told her to go do that. Nobody has told her to go do that because she’s a demiurge, and nobody tells demiurges what to do. It seems like she’s throwing a temper tantrum because she’s at the end of her rope and that’s exactly what she’s doing.
Kinda unclear on what WC’s goal is here. He isn’t taking the key back, and that wouldn’t help anyone anyway. She’s supposed to get him to help them fight Jaggy, but she’s not being very convincing. Maybe they should have sent Nyave.
Hah! The hero will win, or else lose interestingly. Should they win, though- what will it cost? How will it change them? The stuff of stories is wonderful.
Why? He did all that was asked of him, gave all that he had left, and prior to that he was the best ruler and leader among the Demiurges. Everyone in these comments treats him horribly as if he were some sort of satanic overlord, but he was the kindest of the Demiurges. When pressured by his people, he threw his own safety and life aside to buy them as much time as he could upon realizing he couldn’t win.
Now White Chain is demanding he take it all back because she doesn’t want to do the job and wants him to do it again. WC is being selfish and childish here, meanwhile he’s earned to rest in his final days. He earned it. She has not.
Who the fuck cares if he was the kindest if he was still awful?
Does that woman spending decades of her life in prison for drinking become less bad because the worlds ruled by Incubus would have just turned them into a blood sacrifice or whatever? No, morality doesn’t work like that.
And how exactly did he earn his rest? Someone of his station doesn’t *get* rest. Only knower of the most powerful martial art in existence? Immeasurable use as an advisor to White Chain in her conversion of the empire? Hello?
He gave her the power spitefully, as if to say “I hope this ruins you” and tossed her straight into the deep end. She didn’t even consent, he just shoved the key into her skull! But seriously – he could have just not fucked off.
Do you think that prisoner was a sole mistake or can you maybe extrapolate that her “unimportance” in the scale of Solomon’s empire is actually emblematic of how fucked up and totalitarian that empire actually was?
That prisoner is an example of the rote brutality of SD’s reign – that she and everyone else accepted that brutality as necessary to maintain order and safety. Except that order was simply egoistic abuse writ cosmic, and the safety was ultimately a joke.
But go off on how “understanding scale” is important
You need to sit down and shut the fuck up unless you have something of more substance to say. “Hurr durr, you just don’t understand the scale of it all”, yeesh
The Celestial Empire was objectively a brutal, fragile polity that was built and maintained on massive amounts of violence. The Celestial Empire was also objectively the best place in the multiverse for an average person to live.
Solomon David was a tyrant who punished his subjects for normal human flaws and treated violence and power as self-justifying principles. He was also one of the most benevolent rulers in multiversal history, and genuinely cared for the well-being of his subjects.
One can scorn egotism, despotism and the abuse of power. One can give credit for good intent, positive outcomes (compared to known alternatives) and small kindnesses.
All of these things can be true without contradiction. Solomon David is not a good person, insofar as such a person can even be said to exist, and his empire was certainly not a good one. But it’s important to give credit where due. People are complicated. Only accepting perfection and scorning “merely” being better than most tends to win you few friends or followers.
Funny that a Devil Tiger would pontificate about proper morals and ethics of violence while your kind’s whole existence is a violent, divine transgression on multiple levels – and the human level was the first to go.
Clearly, the most active angel from the beginning of Creation Itself, who was already ancient when Solomon was shitting his diapers, has not earned her rest.
Clearly.
But anyway, the clash here is not only between two individuals, it’s also two ideologies, and the fact that Solomon basically boasts that there’s only one way this goes : she takes the power on her shoulders, zips it, and carries on as a Demiurge.
She’s saying “eat my leather boots I’m not doing that”.
And, as interesting and worthwhile oppositions of ideology go, both sides can be subtly right about different things.
And both characters, as well.
As a big fan of both characters, I’m really happy that things aren’t as simple as “He’s right” or “she’s right”.
A bit like the fight between Allison/Cio and White Chains in the fourth book. Nobody was just “right”.
(Even if here, Solomon is clearly more in the wrong. Which is normal, he’s kind of one of the biggest tyrants of the Multiverse)
Ah, lovely analysis. A good fight is similar to a good song in a musical. They’re emotional high points where something important must be conveyed in something more than just words.
Though, friend 7 Zombies, I am unsure why you responded to preem Sass as such. White Chain should definitely get his fucking ass.
But I wasn’t responding to preem Sass, I was trying to respond to 10 Thousand-Calamity Ascension Lifts the Sun’s comment, who tried to explain that Solomon earned his right to rest before the Multiversal Reboot begins, and that White Chains apparently has not.
I considered my duty to explain a bit why such an opinion might be misguided, using the power of litterary analysis.
Because he’s a monumental twat and thinks this little hissy fit of hermitage is somehow okay. He has one moment of realising the folly of his imperial ambitions and now thinks he can just turn his back on the suffering he is absolutely and directly responsible for in one seventh of the multiverse.
He doesn’t get to stuff his power into White Chain and declare it’s not his problem, just because white chain was bold enough to tell him that he was a monster.
Lot of projection sure, but Solomon is easily the most fun to analyze so I wouldn’t say these convos are a bad thing.
The main problem is too many people are fetishizing the whole benevolent overlord ideal when this ENTIRE COMIC has been been consistently pointing out how bad absolute power is. Solomon’s entire purpose was to show how even good intentions shatter in the face the of an entire system geared purely towards power through violence.
There’s absolutely nothing he can do about said suffering.
He only rearranged suffering in his empire, but SD cannot possibly conceive of a way to avoid or expunge it, as he fully subscribes to the idea of violence as the first principle.
I get hating on a biblical god-king, but why do you expect him to have correct answers that he somehow chooses to hide away from spite? He’s clearly a broken, hopeless man who’s content to just sit and wait for his death now.
It seems our sister has learned well from humans and other bipedal species that, when engaging in battle while wearing a long and potentially restrictive lower body garment, it is best to gird up your loins.
IMHO, it’s after this tussle and a bloody nose that Salami Dave will tell his true heir that she truly has the strength to weild the key.
Leisure Kicks to the face is a heckuva recruitment tactic.
there is no emoji in existence that could summarize in one expression the feeling that came through my flimsy brain when I scrolled through the comments and stumbled upon yours.
You just flash banged my brain. I had several moments where no single thought crossed my mind and I was one with the universe because what other fucking response could I have. God damn.
That kick had some weird mechanics, She seems to have jumped to the air to deliver the kick but the last panel makes it seem like she somehow attack from the bottom up? Perhaps this world has some weird gravitational anomalies.
What you’re seeing in the last panel is that even though Solomon attempted to block the kick (which was indeed from above), he is regardless being plunged upside down into the freezing water via the breaking ice.
White Chain has been given this pose before–I think with Kill Boss? When Allison was beating up gangsters during her training. king-of-swords-2-25.
I suspect the pose is an homage to historical angel-focused religious art where there’s a lot of symbolism involving an angel treading on evil (a dragon, a serpent) with the soles of their feet.
In several cultures, stepping on someone, or touching them with your feet, is a really severe insult.
So she’s basically trying to grind someone she sees as a great evil under her feet, religious-symbolism-wise. And also…kick his ass.
As a wise man once said, “Two for flinching.”
As a wise man once said, “To fuck around is human. To find out is divine.”
“Forgiveness is divine, but never pay full price for late pizza”
These are all great quotes to get tattooed.
“Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth” -Mike Tyson
“Nom nom nom” – Also Mike Tyson
Oh.
Right.
No longer a Demiurge now.
… I had forgotten about that. Wasn’t kidding about having spent his strength.
Still a master of Ki Rata. But one who has, perhaps, at long last, learned the lesson his teachers failed to pass on.
Only took him a few thousand years.
Violence, like the Wheel, continues to spin. One must remove oneself from the cycle.
I dunno. The local bandit population probably wouldn’t agree.
There’s not the local bandit population can do right
Solomon may not be a Demiurge now but he’s still the Grandmaster of Ki Rata, having slaughtered all of the previous masters. He survived fighting Jagganoth. He dealt with large numbers of “thieves, throatcutters, and warlords” at his present abode. So he’s capable of chewing bubblegum and kicking ass…and he’s all out of bubble gum.
Man, ‘This is incredibly fucking pathetic for White Chain.’ She started off so noble and wise, demanding Solomon share his power with the people. But now? It’s like watching a toddler throw a tantrum, asking him to take back what he just handed over.
With all that time and god-like power, you’d think White Chain could’ve done a lot more for Solomon’s people. Teleport to another universe under her domain, feed her people, rebuild infrastructure, find capable administrators – the whole deal. But it seems she’s fixated on a small group of friends, which isn’t cutting it for all those people in dire straits.
I mean, think about it. Even the Roman Emperor Augustus faced wars, famines, and political turmoil but still managed to make life better for the Romans and bring about a period of remarkable peace. So, what’s White Chain’s excuse?”
White chain is no longer a standard angel, bound by rigid purpose the way they used to be. She is more human, and such can have clouded judgement, and a weakness for folly.
This is exactly how Solomon got started. Problems need to be solved without keys or you end up with a society entirely dependent on some dude with a key being in charge. That’s the entire point.
So you want her to do same exact thing as Solomon did? Also it was the Roman empire caused all those famines, wars, and political turmoil, so fuck that argument.
Emperor Augustus did deal with one famine and had to handle six civil wars during his power struggles. But here’s the thing – he turned things around and kickstarted the longest era of peace ever. So, dismissing that with a “stupendous ignorant presentism” argument is not fair.
“But here’s the thing – he turned things around and kickstarted the longest era of peace ever.”
There was barely a year when he WASN’T at war. He was the end of the republic and he also instituted the praetorian guard which was to become the bane of the autocracy. What kind of idiot simps for Octavian? He’s dead, “Caesar”, he’s not going to make you proconsul.
“There was barely a year when he WASN’T at war.”
He was having consistent wars through conquest after he became first citizen “princeps.” (Tell me which civilisation had a utopian, kumbaya-type society in antiquity?) There weren’t any wars within the territories of Rome just those on it’s borders.
“He was the end of the republic and he also instituted the praetorian guard which was to become the bane of the autocracy.”
Let’s not forget that the late Roman Republic was already facing significant challenges, like the Marian reforms and deep-rooted corruption. Augustus aimed to address these issues and stabilize the Roman world, which helped Rome endure longer in the face of the Republic’s fall.
As for the Praetorian Guards, they did pose issues for the empire, but their influence was later curtailed, notably by Constantine the Great. He not only handled the Praetorians but also played a crucial role in the empire’s longevity. His decision to shift the capital to Byzantium, now known as Istanbul, was a strategic move that contributed to Rome’s lasting presence even after the Western Roman Empire fell. So, it’s a complex mix of challenges and solutions that played into the Roman story.
“What kind of idiot simps for Octavian? He’s dead, “Caesar”, he’s not going to make you proconsul.”
That’s the weakest comeback through insult. Here let me show you how that can be twisted into another way. ‘What kind of an idiot simps over his mother? She,s never going to make you her favourite child.’
I like Augustus and Roman history. Nothing wrong with that. It isn’t Nazi worshiping. It’s a by gone age that can be fascinating to appreciate and compare to many things.
“I like Augustus and Roman history. Nothing wrong with that.”
But not such as to catch the joke in the username? My apologies, Caesar. Didn’t mean to offend.
Sorry I got caught in my defensive rant for my love for Rome.
Mass oppression and killing anyone who dared speak out against him is a funny way to think about peace. Also that’s not even true. He invaded multiple places as emperor, norther Spain, Germany, and the Alpines.
Besides the whole point of what White Chain is doing is to move away from the authoritarian kings and do something new. She does not want to be anything like Solomon, she wants to do better and has made that extremally clear from the moment we first saw her in this chapter. Hell from the moment she first became human.
Augustus didn’t exactly play the bad guy to regular folks in Rome. He did, however, give the boot to those shady senators who were all too happy to mess with the Roman soldiers, grabbing their lands and replacing them with slaves.
But hey, let’s not forget that back in those days, everyone and their cousin seemed to be on the conquest bandwagon. It was like a big trend—tribes fighting tribes, kingdoms duking it out with their neighbors. So, when you think about it, those places Augustus went after were all part of the conquest party.
Under Augustus’s watch, things were relatively chill in the Roman provinces, except for the Iberian Peninsula, which was a bit of a hotspot. It took some time, but they eventually brought it under control during his reign.
And, yeah, we can’t really judge folks from way back when by today’s moral standards. They were building the world that eventually led to our cushy lives (well, in some parts of the world, at least).
That is the dumbest shit I have ever heard. Augustus did not give the senate the boot, the senate existed until the fall of Constantinople over a thousand years later. And no not everyone was on the conquest bandwagon, otherwise we would see way more empires at this time in places like Germany and Britain. And we most certainly can and should judge people based on our morality, the “tHeY wERe FrOm A DiFFeRent TiMe” is just lazy.
The angels were not meant to rule. She’s been an enforcer this whole time. Her purpose was to keep the laws and punish the criminal. She doesn’t even understand how to lead, let alone how to RULE, and rulership requires many things that someone who values their honor and purity cannot commit to. She’s having to choose between betraying who she’s been for literal eons vs. betraying people she’s never met and doesn’t care about individually, but wants them to be safe as a whole.
The quickest way to end this internal feud is for Solomon, the best ruler among the Demiurges, to take back his key and throne. So she’s desperately clinging to the idea that he must do it because currently she doesn’t believe she can rise to the occasion and never wanted to do so in the first place.
Not to mention, rule by a single benevolent and immortal being is the greatest form of governance, where they’re trying to build democracy in a collection of 111,111 universes that has far too many people to work, far too many ideas and cultures to ever agree on much, and many warlords-in-waiting who are going to start causing trouble now that a supremely powerful ruler is no longer on the throne. Not to mention even if they do get it sorted there’s going to be all sorts of corruption as people try to slowly maneuver presidency towards becoming the crown again, and have their own faction permanently take the seat and make it a throne once more.
It cannot reasonably work with this many people involved. They need an invincible ruler who cares about their safety and health, protecting their society and hearts, minds, and bodies.
I get the concern that White Chain’s been all about enforcing the rules, not making them. But hey, she’s been through a lot in the story, and she’s learned a thing or two about leadership along the way. Her strong sense of honor and purity can be her compass in a leadership role.
Rulership doesn’t mean she has to toss her values aside; she can use them to guide her decisions. Stepping into a leadership role might be a natural evolution for her character, and it could lead to a more fair and just kind of governance that balances her personal values with the greater good.
PS, My bad if it came across like I was pushing for a full-on democracy. What I meant is that White Chain could bring more people into her team, not just stick with her close buddies. It’s about expanding her advisors beyond the inner circle, which seems like a smart move in such a huge multiverse.
The “immortal benevolent ruler” is a toss up. On the one hand, we see Raiden and on the other we see Solomon. (Benevolent hands-off rule vs benevolent hands-on rule.) In the few tiny situations where I’ve had ruling authority (staff stuff, homeowner (or primary renter) w/ roommates), my hands-off approach has had long term positive results, but really messed up short-term ones.
She never asked he share his KEY, she asked him to share his POWER. She wanted democracy- a government ruled by the people. Not by a despot with a seventh of god’s name in their head.
What’s bugging me is that it seems like she hasn’t really made an effort to help the people. She hasn’t given democracy a shot or tried to pick the right folks for the job; all she’s done is a bare minimum job of just shifting her role to her friends.
She has tried to give democracy a shot: she realized very quickly that too many of the Celestial Empire cling to an emperor. Further, White Chain does not possess the skills to govern a country. She is a warrior and lawman. She never wanted to rule, and upon being demanded to rule as heir to the throne, she ineffectually tried abdicating to others.
Nyave has been repeatedly and overwhelmingly elected as factotum because White Chain endorsed her, and because she does not run herself. You’re right- we haven’t seen much of White Chain rebuilding the empire, and that’s because her unwillingness to accept the mantle of leadership seems to have extended toward being the sole executor of such affairs. It seems like she definitely could have done better- that’s the joy of characterization! I disagree with you, though, that her response here is pathetic.
The crux of the issue is that the “godlike powers” afforded by the key are overwhelmingly geared toward committing incredible acts of violence. She’s attacking him because he forced a weapon of mass destruction into her head, thereby marking her as heir to an unwanted monarchical empire that oppressed millions, and is rather understandably pissed about him ditching all of his problems onto her. How much she is at fault for not fixing all of the enumerable problems of the Celestial Empire is another question.
yeah man just completely transition from an absolutist monarchy to a democracy while under threat of cosmic annihilation, even as you’re being attacked by the forces of Incubus, in what, like 3-4 years with no problems, while being metaphysically not even built for these kinds of things
also nevermind the fact that they have actually organized multiple elections and mounted defenses against the forces of Incubus, so I don’t know what you’re talking about.
She never wanted to have Solomon’s key. She wanted Solomon to liberalize his empire and step down to allow his people to rule themselves. Solomon gave her his key because he saw its power as a burden, because he’d seen what White Chain only saw in the last few years – that some people *demand* to be ruled by a tyrant. She doesn’t want to become that, so she wants him to take the key back.
Sorry for making it sound like I wanted a democracy, that wasn’t my intention. I just wanted to point out my frustration that she didn’t seem to put any effort in selecting the right people to help her run things while she uses her god like powers to run things forward, help defend the people, try and gain needed resource through teleporting into her 111,111 universes that has an abundance of those resources.
PS I see your point that Solomon might wanted to show white chain the burden of ruling. But having a tantrum and wait g 3 years to find the guy when you could of at least tried to help the people rather than throw a tantrum is my frustration.
I didn’t mean to push for a full-blown democracy, that’s my bad for making it sound like that. My point was more about White Chain expanding her circle of help beyond just her friends.
My frustration is she had years, like, plenty of them, but she didn’t do much except pass on her admin troubles to her friends. It feels like she could’ve been way more proactive.
Sure, there’s an apocalypse looming, but why not make an effort to help the people rather than waiting around for decades and then suddenly deciding to hunt down Solomon for help? It’s like, why not try to evacuate folks from Solomon’s crummy domain to a better place? Or, get cozy with some of her enemies’ followers who are fed up with their god and could work as mercenaries, or just hire some warriors to defend the people. She’s got god-like powers, so there’s more she could do than just posing as poster face for her buddies.
Going out to find the guy who ditched his people seems like an odd choice. What’s that gonna do except bring back a tyrant who oppressed his people again? Then have a tantrum when your time could’ve been way more productive.
I’m gonna be honest, I don’t think she knows how to rule. She’s been a servant entity for thousands upon thousands of years. It’s ingrained into her soul. She’s been desperately doing what she can to help, but the lack of guidance, of president, of forging ahead into unknown waters, of making decisions that could very well be utterly wrong and detrimental. That’s not her strong suit.
Shure, she will probably learn to lead one day, but that takes time. And that’s if she diddnt have to also get accustomed to her new physical form, along with dealing with the universe being burnt down and the threat of its igniter reappearing and annihilating them an day now.
We are quick to give people shit for not living up to our expectations, or doing the perfectly logical thing with 0 effort or doubt, and just ignoring all the “unimportant” things surrounding them. It’s real fuckin easy ain’t it?
White Chain isn’t just your average high school kid with a small project to worry about. She’s a god with some serious powers and a lot on her plate. Given what she’s capable of and the huge challenges in the multiverse, it’s not unreasonable to expect her to use her abilities for the greater good. So, while we shouldn’t demand perfection, it’s fair to hold her to a high standard given her divine status.
1000s of years as an angel a few decades as a human angel hybrid, fucking god. Better step your game rather than weak ass tantrum.
Really rethink these timelines; it was four years, not a few decades. She’s been human-esque for four years. She had to discover EATING.
Think about what it must be like to have a huge shift into having ANIMAL HORMONES after thousands of years without. Full of a mix of the white flame and human drives to cause your anxieties.
She’s effectively going through the first angelic puberty ever with no one having done it before, all with the weight of an already collapsed and fragmented empire placed on her shoulders.
What she wanted was for Solomon to allow power to move beyond violence, because however ‘benevolent’ he was he was also a weapon of mass destruction telling his people “You can have this power when you can take it from me; otherwise trust me to make all decisions and keep you safe.” His biases, over generations. His passive aggression, over centuries. His implicit threat, over a myriad.
White chain is very clearly not a god. She’s a small time cop with integrity who can now shoot nukes out of her pinkies, and now you expect her to go and fix a multiverse scale problem on top of empire that got it’s sole pillar yanked out from underneath her.
Demiurge keys are merely weapons, and you can’t expect a weapon solve governance issues, no matter what a chinese or a roman dictator might say.
You’ve complained about things White Chain hasn’t done, but you’ve been making some fallacious assumptions. First, you’ve talked about things she hasn’t done as a ruler, as though she assumed a throne but has been derelict in its duties. You make reference to getting people to “help her run things”. She HASN’T been running things, as she has deliberately refused a position of leadership. This is not a dereliction of duty, as she never wanted nor accepted such a position. She wanted someone(s) other than Solomon to rule, presumably someone more capable of it than he. That was never going to be her, and she has done her best to get the people to pick people other than her, despite their attempts. When the people choose you to lead them, but you know you aren’t equal to the task, you’re not being irresponsible when you refuse the role, you would be irresponsible if you ACCEPTED it. Similarly, she has wanted as little as possible to do with the process of selecting leaders, so it’s not fair to lay at her feet the blame for not expanding leadership past her circle of friends.
Second, you mention “her 111,111 universes”. We already heard that Solomon’s empire immediately collapsed into civil war. She doesn’t control those universes, and the Republic might not control even ONE universe.
Third, you mention some things that she could have been doing to help using her Key, but you’re forgetting something. For thousands of years she has existed in the culture of a cultivation setting. She might literally not know that the Key can be used for humanitarian purposes; it’s entirely possible that as far as she knows, the most benevolent use of such power is keeping the peace, like she had been doing for thousands of years. Remember, this is a cultivation setting, it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that as far as most people in setting are concerned, the only uses of fantastic magical power are destructive ones. You mention rebuilding infrastructure, getting resources from other universes, and more, but I don’t recall a shred of evidence that anyone has ever used their magic for those things, so it might not have occurred to anyone that it’s possible. As far as I recall, the tradition of powerful warriors using their magic powers for benevolent purposes ended with the Gods creating the 777,777 universes. Keep in mind, when I say “benevolent purposes”, I’m not talking about killing the wicked. That’s all over the place. I’m talking about the things you mentioned, like building, farming, etc. We’ve seen some healing arts, but we don’t have any indication that White Chain could just… start healing people. Further, I don’t think the people in-story have any such indication. The Factotum mentioned White Chain refusing to touch her power, but that’s ambiguous. It’s entirely possible that nobody even considered non-combat uses for the Key, so it’s not fair to blame White Chain for not using it for that.
Fourth, you talk about White Chain’s attempts to get Solomon to give up his power, then her pleas for him to take it back. Others have already mentioned this, but it’s still important: The powers involved are two different things. She wanted him to give someone else (not even her) his POLITICAL power, IE the rulership of his territory. Her forced on HER his MAGICAL power, the Key, the word Diamond. She wants him to take back the KEY, not the throne. She wants this because she never wanted the Key, and thus doesn’t want to use it. I suspect this is because she’s an Angel, and could already defeat anyone weaker than a Demiurge (or possibly a Sword Saint). Thus, she already had all the power she needs, and the Key is entirely excessive, only making people more afraid of her.
No one wants to be ruled by a tyrant. They want other people ruled by a tyrant.
wow, immagine being handed over god-like powers and a multiverse-spanning empire that has just receved milions of deaths, lost the ruler that found the empire thousands of years ago and is currently at war with another multiverse-spanning empire that is more prepared for war overnight while not having asked for it and NOT solving every problem in the span of 3 years while dealing with that, the death of a dear friend, the disappence of another, your whole body changing compleately and having to 100% relearn how to live… what a pathetic looser am i right?
that’s how you sound, and to be honest you can take your augustus and put it in the same situation and get the same results, the roman empire is slightly a few thousands of universes smaller than this empire
Well, that’s what Augustus’ propaganda said …
I’ve kicked the hornet’s nest here. But hey I still stand by my views here. (There’s going to be another set of comment of lectures isn’t there.)
I mean…the whole point is that these expectations on White chain are completely unrealistic.
What she’s been doing is both perfectly in character and completely realistic given the situation. The fact that they’ve been able to salvage ANYTHING is a massive victory on its own.
Could they have done better? Yes…but that can be said of just about every single person in this comic. Personally I’m sick and tired of mary sue characters who are super geniuses who can fix every problem in just a few issues and somehow are capable of planning for every possible political contingency (thanks Japan). It’s refreshing to have characters that are competent yet flawed.
Also as has been pointed out: Augustus was literally groomed by Caesar as his replacement, he had plenty of advisors, experts, and allies to assist him in governance (currently only Nyave has any expertise), and he did not have a massive world ending threat breathing down his neck with no possible solution in sight that is further compounded by an army many times the size and strength of his own nation (Thorn Knights) with a far more experienced godlike general (Incubus) who can solo armies ALSO breathing down his neck.
Seriously…the closest analogue to this would be if Augustus had to save Rome after everyone saw Jove get absolutely bodied by Dazhbog (in an event that razed the capital to the ground), then Horus raises a massive army in Northern Africa and starts conquering and pillaging left and right, all of Rome’s provinces have been plunged into chaos, instead of being the favoured nephew of the previous autocrat he was instead just a really good cop who had iffy relations with his coworkers, not to mention he had to spend most of his life as an animate construct of Vulcan but is now a human demigod with all the fun feelings and sensations that entails, OH and he just saw Hercules (Allison) supposedly die in combat with Dazhbog despite being aided by nearly the entire pantheon and he knows Dazhbog is gonna bust out at some point and probably burn down anything he manages to fix/build anyway. Alright Augustus you got IV years don’t f*** up!
Like…seriously bruh. Sure he was one of the better rulers throughout history but there is a time and a place for your rome boner and a cosmic godly epic saga with universal stakes and a COMPLETELY different situation is not that place…
Continuing arguing for my point: I sleep.
Someone argues against my Roam boner: CASUS BELI!
Augustus’s Peaceful Reign Counterargument
Default (GPT-3.5)
User
This person is making in my point of view a poor argument against Augustus reign of peace. Can you argue against this statement.
“Mass oppression and killing anyone who dared speak out against him is a funny way to think about peace. Also that’s not even true. He invaded multiple places as emperor, norther Spain, Germany, and the Alpines.”
ChatGPT
You can counter the statement by highlighting the complexities of Augustus’s reign:
Augustus’s Reign of Peace: You can argue that Augustus did bring about a period of relative stability and peace to Rome after the turmoil of the late Roman Republic. While there were instances of oppression and punishment for dissent, it’s important to note that during his rule, the Roman Empire experienced a prolonged period of internal peace and external expansion.
Political Realities: Emphasize that Augustus faced numerous political challenges, and maintaining his authority often required measures that might seem oppressive to some. Augustus believed that his rule was necessary to restore order and stability to Rome.
Military Campaigns: Regarding the invasions mentioned, point out that many of these military campaigns were motivated by strategic or defensive considerations. The expansion of the Roman Empire was not necessarily inconsistent with the goal of maintaining peace and security within its borders.
Historical Context: Remind that assessing historical figures and their actions should be done in the context of their times. Augustus’s methods may seem harsh by today’s standards, but they were not unusual in the context of the Roman Republic’s transition to the Roman Empire.
In summary, while Augustus’s reign was not without its flaws and controversies, it is a matter of historical debate whether his actions can be seen as a net positive or negative for the stability and prosperity of the Roman world during his rule.
User
Was Augustus oppressive to the Roman people or just the Aristocrats of Rome?
ChatGPT
Augustus’s rule involved a mix of policies and actions that affected different segments of Roman society, including both the aristocracy and the general population.
Aristocrats: Augustus did take measures to consolidate his power, often at the expense of the traditional Roman aristocracy. He implemented various political reforms and reduced the political influence of the Senate. Some aristocrats who posed a threat to his authority were either exiled or had their powers curtailed.
General Population: On the other hand, Augustus also introduced several reforms and initiatives that aimed to benefit the general population. He implemented policies to improve the legal system, infrastructure, and public welfare. He took measures to ensure the security and stability of the empire, which would have been of benefit to the average citizen.
In summary, Augustus’s approach was a blend of political pragmatism and an attempt to maintain order and stability in Rome. While some aristocrats faced oppression or loss of influence, his reign also brought certain advantages and a sense of security to the broader population. His rule is often seen as a complex mix of authoritarianism and governance, making it challenging to categorize it as strictly oppressive or non-oppressive to any single group.
User
Did he oppress the ple s?
ChatGPT
Augustus’s rule involved policies that were designed to maintain social order and strengthen the Roman state, and these policies could have had varying impacts on different segments of society, including the plebeians or common people. Some actions and policies that could be seen as potentially affecting the plebeians during Augustus’s reign include:
Taxation and Tribute: Augustus implemented tax reforms and imposed a more organized system of taxation. While this might have been a financial burden, it was also essential for funding the Roman state and its various initiatives.
Grain Distributions: Augustus continued the practice of providing free or subsidized grain to the urban poor, which helped ensure their loyalty and well-being.
Public Welfare: He initiated various public works projects and provided for the repair and construction of infrastructure, which could have improved living conditions for some plebeians.
Legal Reforms: Augustus introduced legal reforms that aimed to protect the rights of Roman citizens, including plebeians, by providing them with a more stable legal framework.
It’s important to note that the plebeians were a diverse group, and the impact of Augustus’s policies would have varied based on individual circumstances. While some plebeians may have experienced hardship or changes in their status, others likely benefited from the stability and prosperity of the empire during his rule. Augustus’s governance was a complex mix of policies, and whether he oppressed the plebeians as a group is a matter of historical debate.
User
What did Augustus did to the alpines?
ChatGPT
Augustus, as part of his broader expansionist policies, conducted military campaigns in the Alpine regions. His main objectives were to secure the northern borders of the Roman Empire and establish control over the areas inhabited by various Alpine tribes. These campaigns are often grouped under the term “Alpine Campaigns.”
The Alpine Campaigns involved a series of military actions and conquests in the Alps and surrounding areas, primarily in modern-day Switzerland, Austria, and parts of the Alpine regions in northern Italy and southern Germany. Augustus aimed to consolidate Roman control in these regions and ensure the safety and stability of the northern frontier.
The specific actions and campaigns during Augustus’s rule in the Alpine regions might not be as well-documented as some of his other military exploits, but they were part of his broader efforts to expand and secure the Roman Empire. These campaigns contributed to the Romanization of the Alpine territories and their integration into the Roman administrative system.
User
When was Hispania fully subdued by rome
ChatGPT
The Roman conquest of the Iberian Peninsula, known as Hispania, was a gradual process that spanned several centuries. The subjugation of Hispania began in the 3rd century BC and continued well into the 1st century AD. The timeline for the full conquest of Hispania is as follows:
Punic Wars: The Roman Republic’s involvement in the Punic Wars (264–146 BC) with Carthage led to the initial Roman presence in the Iberian Peninsula, as they sought to gain control of key regions from Carthaginian influence. The First Punic War saw the Romans establish their presence in the eastern part of Hispania.
Romanization of Hispania: Over the next century, the Romans gradually expanded their control westward and southward, Romanizing the local population and establishing control over the various regions of Hispania. This process was not without resistance from local tribes.
Cantabrian Wars: The final major military campaigns in the conquest of Hispania were the Cantabrian Wars, which took place between 29 BC and 19 BC. These wars aimed to subdue the Cantabri and Astures in the northern part of the Iberian Peninsula. The campaigns, led by generals like Augustus, eventually resulted in Roman control over these regions.
So, by the end of the Cantabrian Wars in 19 BC, the Romans had largely subjugated Hispania, marking the effective incorporation of the Iberian Peninsula into the Roman Empire. It’s important to note that while the major military campaigns were over, the process of fully integrating and Romanizing the entire region would continue for many years, and regional uprisings and resistance could still occur.
User
Was emperor Augustus oppressive and tryantical?
ChatGPT
Assessing whether Emperor Augustus was oppressive and tyrannical is a matter of historical interpretation and debate. Augustus, who ruled from 27 BC to 14 AD, played a pivotal role in the transition from the Roman Republic to the Roman Empire. His reign was characterized by a complex set of policies and actions.
Here are some key points to consider:
Political Reforms: Augustus implemented a range of political reforms to stabilize the Roman state, often at the expense of the traditional Roman aristocracy. He reduced the power of the Senate, established a system of imperial succession, and concentrated significant power in his own hands.
Militaristic Expansion: While Augustus was responsible for expanding the Roman Empire through various military campaigns, some of these campaigns may be seen as aggressive rather than purely defensive.
Social and Economic Policies: Augustus introduced policies to benefit the general population, including grain distributions to the urban poor and public welfare programs. These measures were aimed at promoting social stability.
Legal Reforms: He introduced legal reforms to protect the rights of Roman citizens and ensure a more stable legal framework.
Cultural Patronage: Augustus was a patron of the arts and culture, promoting the “Pax Romana” (Roman Peace) and encouraging a period of flourishing literature and architecture.
Augustus’s rule can be seen as a mixture of authoritarianism and governance aimed at restoring order and stability in the Roman world after the tumultuous late Roman Republic. Some argue that his actions, such as suppressing political opposition and concentrating power, were necessary to prevent further civil wars and maintain peace. Others view his rule as oppressive due to the concentration of power and the suppression of dissent.
In summary, whether Augustus was oppressive and tyrannical or a stabilizing force in Roman history is a subject of historical interpretation. Opinions on this matter may vary among historians and scholars.
User
Write this better.
Augustus wasn’t oppressive to the people of Rome. He made a purge and oppressed the corrupt Roman senators who were more than happy to fuck over the Roman legionaries by buying their farm lands and fill them with slaves.
And I did say his only wars are ones of conquest. Every other civilisation was doing the same at the time. Not at the scope of Rome’s extent but the same. All this places you mentioned are of conquest. There are no other nations who weren’t raiding, raging war on each other. Tribes attacked other tribes. Kingdoms wage war on their neighbours.
The province’s of Rome were at peace. The only place of unrest was the Iberian Peninsula which led to it’s final conquest in the north of the peninsula under Augustus.
Remeber judging the past with today’s morals is redundant. Since everything came before us helped build up our privileged state of life (not everywhere of course.)
ChatGPT
Augustus’s approach toward the people of Rome wasn’t necessarily oppressive. He took measures to cleanse the ranks of corrupt Roman senators who were exploiting and mistreating Roman legionaries, particularly by seizing their farmlands and replacing them with slaves.
It’s worth noting that during Augustus’s time, the pursuit of conquest was a common practice among many civilizations, though the scale of Rome’s expansion was notable. Wars of conquest were prevalent, and various tribes and kingdoms engaged in conflicts, often attacking one another or their neighbors.
Under Augustus’s rule, the provinces of the Roman Empire generally experienced a level of stability and peace, with the notable exception of the Iberian Peninsula, which witnessed ongoing unrest culminating in its final conquest in the northern regions during Augustus’s reign.
It’s important to keep in mind that assessing historical figures should be done within the context of their era, rather than imposing today’s moral standards on the past. The actions and policies of those who came before us, like Augustus, have contributed to shaping the world we live in today, which is marked by various privileges and challenges.
User
Re write than in a casual tone
ChatGPT
Augustus didn’t exactly play the bad guy to regular folks in Rome. He did, however, give the boot to those shady senators who were all too happy to mess with the Roman soldiers, grabbing their lands and replacing them with slaves.
But hey, let’s not forget that back in those days, everyone and their cousin seemed to be on the conquest bandwagon. It was like a big trend—tribes fighting tribes, kingdoms duking it out with their neighbors. So, when you think about it, those places Augustus went after were all part of the conquest party.
Under Augustus’s watch, things were relatively chill in the Roman provinces, except for the Iberian Peninsula, which was a bit of a hotspot. It took some time, but they eventually brought it under control during his reign.
And, yeah, we can’t really judge folks from way back when by today’s moral standards. They were building the world that eventually led to our cushy lives (well, in some parts of the world, at least).
User
What’s the expression of kicking the hornet’s nest?
ChatGPT
“Kicking the hornet’s nest” is an idiom that means to do something that stirs up trouble, provokes a strong reaction, or initiates a series of problems or conflicts. It’s often used to describe actions that may seem harmless or insignificant on the surface but result in significant negative consequences or a strong backlash.
User
Write this internet comment better.
I’ve kicked the hornet’s nest here. But hey I still fill the same. (There’s going to be another set of comment of lectures isn’t there from random strangers)
ChatGPT
I might have just stirred things up here, but you know what? I stand by my views. (I can already picture more unsolicited opinions coming my way from the internet’s finest armchair experts.) 🙄
User
Make a strong argument against this.
I mean…the whole point is that these expectations on White chain are completely unrealistic.
What she’s been doing is both perfectly in character and completely realistic given the situation. The fact that they’ve been able to salvage ANYTHING is a massive victory on its own.
Could they have done better? Yes…but that can be said of just about every single person in this comic. Personally I’m sick and tired of mary sue characters who are super geniuses who can fix every problem in just a few issues and somehow are capable of planning for every possible political contingency (thanks Japan). It’s refreshing to have characters that are competent yet flawed.
Also as has been pointed out: Augustus was literally groomed by Caesar as his replacement, he had plenty of advisors, experts, and allies to assist him in governance (currently only Nyave has any expertise), and he did not have a massive world ending threat breathing down his neck with no possible solution in sight that is further compounded by an army many times the size and strength of his own nation (Thorn Knights) with a far more experienced godlike general (Incubus) who can solo armies ALSO breathing down his neck.
Seriously…the closest analogue to this would be if Augustus had to save Rome after everyone saw Jove get absolutely bodied by Dazhbog (in an event that razed the capital to the ground), then Horus raises a massive army in Northern Africa and starts conquering and pillaging left and right, all of Rome’s provinces have been plunged into chaos, instead of being the favoured nephew of the previous autocrat he was instead just a really good cop who had iffy relations with his coworkers, not to mention he had to spend most of his life as an animate construct of Vulcan but is now a human demigod with all the fun feelings and sensations that entails, OH and he just saw Hercules (Allison) supposedly die in combat with Dazhbog despite being aided by nearly the entire pantheon and he knows Dazhbog is gonna bust out at some point and probably burn down anything he manages to fix/build anyway. Alright Augustus you got IV years don’t f*** up!
Like…seriously bruh. Sure he was one of the better rulers throughout history but there is a time and a place for your rome boner and a cosmic godly epic saga with universal stakes and a COMPLETELY different situation is not that place…
ChatGPT
It’s crucial to recognize the context and complexity of the situation faced by White Chain and the expectations placed on her character. While it’s true that her actions align with her character development and the dire circumstances she faces, the issue isn’t solely about her competence.
The real concern lies in the broader narrative, not necessarily in making her a “mary sue” character who can solve everything effortlessly. The frustration expressed is more likely a reflection of the overall pacing and storytelling in the comic. It’s important to remember that a character can be both competent and engaging without having to possess superhuman abilities or always succeeding without challenges.
While comparing White Chain’s role to a hypothetical scenario involving Augustus is intriguing, it’s essential to recognize that different narratives have different tones, themes, and requirements. Augustus and White Chain are characters in separate stories with unique contexts. The critique appears to be aimed at the storytelling choices rather than the characters themselves.
Ultimately, discussions about storytelling in comics should focus on pacing, character development, and plot progression rather than the degree of realism or superhuman abilities. These elements contribute to the overall enjoyment and engagement of readers.
User
Did Julius Caesar groom Octavian?
ChatGPT
Yes, Julius Caesar played a significant role in the early political career of Octavian, who later became known as Augustus. Octavian was Julius Caesar’s grand-nephew and was adopted by Caesar in his will. This adoption made Octavian his heir and marked him as the designated successor to Julius Caesar.
Julius Caesar had plans for Octavian to play a role in the post-Caesar political landscape, which included consolidating his own power and reforms in the Roman Republic. After Caesar’s assassination in 44 BC, Octavian emerged as a key figure in the ensuing power struggle and civil wars. He ultimately succeeded in establishing himself as the first Roman Emperor, effectively ending the Roman Republic and beginning the era of the Roman Empire.
So, while Julius Caesar didn’t live to see Octavian become Augustus, he did play a pivotal role in setting the stage for Octavian’s rise to power.
User
Did he ever personally mentor him
ChatGPT
Julius Caesar and Octavian (who would later become Augustus) did not have a close personal mentorship in the way a teacher might instruct a student. Their relationship was more that of family and political alliance.
Julius Caesar did recognize Octavian’s potential and adopted him as his heir, which was a significant political move. This adoption marked Octavian as Caesar’s preferred successor and set the stage for Octavian’s political career. However, their interactions and guidance were likely more influenced by the political and familial context of their relationship rather than a formal mentorship.
It’s also important to note that Octavian received guidance and support from various other influential figures during his rise to power, including his alliance with Mark Antony and the support of military commanders and advisers.
User
Where did octavian go after he sailed to Hispania to see caesar
ChatGPT
After Octavian sailed to Hispania to join Julius Caesar during the civil wars, he did not immediately return to Rome. Instead, he continued to serve in Caesar’s campaigns. In 45 BC, after the victory over the Pompeian forces at the Battle of Munda in Hispania, Octavian accompanied Caesar back to Rome.
Upon their return, Octavian’s political career continued to evolve, and he became more involved in the political affairs of Rome. His relationship with Caesar’s former allies and opponents, including Mark Antony and the Senate, would play a significant role in the complex power struggles that followed Caesar’s assassination in 44 BC. This ultimately led to the transformation of Octavian into the central figure in Roman politics and, eventually, the first Roman Emperor, Augustus.
User
When was it revealed that Caesar adopted Octavian as his son
ChatGPT
Julius Caesar’s formal adoption of Octavian as his son and heir took place in his will, which was made public after his assassination in 44 BC. It was only after Caesar’s death that the details of his will were disclosed, and Octavian’s adoption was revealed.
The announcement of Octavian as Caesar’s heir and the publication of his will had significant political implications and marked the beginning of Octavian’s rise to power in the complex and turbulent political landscape of the late Roman Republic. This event played a crucial role in shaping Octavian’s political career and eventually led to his transformation into Augustus, the first Roman Emperor.
User
Write this better, in a casual tone.
If you know your late Roman republic and early Roman empire history. Then you should know that Guias Julius Caesar didn’t personally mentor Octavian. He adopted him as his heir in his will, which was discovered after Caesar’s assassination. Caesar was impressed with Octavian, when Octavian travelled to the Iberian Peninsula during Caesar’s last year’s of his civil war. He arrived after the battle, planing to joining in the beginning but wasn’t able to make it in time because his ship was wrecked. Never the less Caesar was impressed. When Caesar returned to Rome with Octavian, Octavian soon traveled to Greece to finish his education and military training. Caesar at this time was in Rome being assassinated. So there wasn’t any grooming at all.
As to Augustus not dealing with a world ending event. That’s not entirely true. Sure he wasn’t dealing with existence literally ending with the extermination of the multiverse but he was dealing with a tired, broken, Roman republic that seems to be on it’s last set of legs of survival. He had to deal with 6 civil wars (after the largest civil war Rome’s had.) the last being more of a hybrid war of a civil war and war with another nation. He had to deal with a starving Italia provirence (pretty much Italy) during one of these civil wars. He was facing the challenge of all he knew of the world and civilisation he lived in to crumble to dust and had to deal with it. He made many mistakes in such dire times in the beginning but later on turned out on top on the end. He wasn’t a great general, actually far from it as he had no interest in battles at all. He relied and chose a great general and his friend, Agrippa. (That can be compared to white chain in the opposite aspect. She could better choose her administrators while she stays as a great general or force to recognise.)
Augustus had to deal with Mark Antony as a general in his last “Civil war.” But he had to deal with the incredible, genius ruler Cleopatra the 7th (Last Pharo of Egypt ) backing up Mark Antony with her massive resource of Egypt.
If you know some of the events during this part of Augustus life then you can see it’s incredibly well comparable from a dying Roman republic and the end of their civilisation and a apocalyptic scenario. It’s obviously not as grand as the end of existence but it is comparable.
And I mean come on there’s no real harm in comparing similar things. You don’t need real historical figures have to deal with kung fu fighting gods, you can exchange the physical and magical might of gods to compitent generals with powerful armies. There’s no harm in that. This isn’t your or my comic book creation. Don’t get too but hurt from criticism.
ChatGPT
If you’re into your late Roman Republic and early Roman Empire history, you might already know that Gaius Julius Caesar didn’t exactly play the role of a personal mentor to Octavian. Instead, he adopted Octavian as his heir through his will, which only came to light after Caesar’s assassination. It’s interesting how their paths crossed, though. Octavian actually went to the Iberian Peninsula during Caesar’s final years of his civil war. He had plans to join the action there, but his ship ended up taking an unexpected detour courtesy of a wreck. Talk about bad timing! Nevertheless, Caesar was pretty impressed by Octavian’s gumption.
Once Caesar and Octavian got back to Rome, Octavian didn’t just kick back and relax. He headed to Greece to round off his education and military training. Meanwhile, Caesar was dealing with the not-so-pleasant experience of being assassinated in Rome. So, you could say there wasn’t exactly any grooming going on.
As for the idea that Augustus didn’t have to deal with a world-ending event, well, it’s a bit more nuanced. While it’s true he wasn’t dealing with the literal end of existence, he was facing a pretty rough scene in the Roman Republic. It was like watching a dying man on his last legs. Augustus had to contend with not one or two, but a whopping six civil wars (after Rome’s biggest civil war, mind you). One of those wars left Italy starving, which wasn’t exactly a walk in the park. He basically had to navigate the world he knew falling apart at the seams.
Augustus wasn’t exactly your go-to general either; battles weren’t his thing. He leaned on the prowess of his buddy Agrippa, a great general. This dynamic, in a way, could be compared to White Chain’s role, where she might excel in her battlefield expertise while having to rely on capable administrators.
Oh, and let’s not forget about Mark Antony and Cleopatra. Augustus had to face off against this dynamic duo, with Cleopatra and her mighty Egyptian resources backing up Mark Antony.
So, if you dig into the events of this part of Augustus’s life, you’ll see it’s got its own kind of apocalyptic vibe—a crumbling Roman Republic and the potential end of their civilization. It’s not quite the end of the universe, but it’s a comparable ordeal.
Comparing similar scenarios can be a thought-provoking exercise. You don’t need to have real historical figures duking it out with kung fu gods; you can translate the epic might of gods into competent generals leading formidable armies. There’s no harm in that. Remember, this isn’t your or my comic book creation, so let’s not get too bent out of shape over criticism.
are you using chatgpt to argue what the fuck is this. that really speaks for itself.
For real nobody is reading an ai generated wall of text you Clueless twat. At this point we should probably report you for clogging up the comments section with massive ammounts of garbage text. I cannot comprehend what is going on in your head, but after looking over your actual posts, I assume some degenerative learning disability is involved.
Hey ArisBotle, nobody cares.
Yes indeed. Comparing things can be a useful thought exercise.
But holy shit dude…This is no longer a thought exercise. This is an obsession. This is a problematic obsession. If you were genuinely engaging in historical discourse on a forum for it or writing a paper for college I would commend you but gawd dayum son…I told you…THERE IS A TIME AND A PLACE.
And this is neither of those things…
Consider that White Chain would probably loudly and publicly agree with you. She’s a creature of order and instruction, and has spent 81-and-change lifetimes following a code of law to the letter. People like that tend to think about law as a un-changing imperative. Not something they personally make up themselves.
She literally had power for all of five minutes before she vehemently refused it and demanded to be told what to do and where to go. I mean, come on. Even if you buy into the lie that she’s not actually empress of her nation, she’s still the leader of their armed forces. And yet she has a patrol route.
A PATROL ROUTE.
When’s the last time you saw the Secretary of Defense doing a security check of the White House perimeter. Because that’s what White Chain spends her time doing. If that’s not the angelic, Assigned-Cop-At-Birth equivalent of a cry for help, I don’t know what is.
She’s not cut out for this and has told everyone within earshot. It’s just that they don’t actually care.
She’s not off on some world building bridges and settling order because nobody has told her to go do that. Nobody has told her to go do that because she’s a demiurge, and nobody tells demiurges what to do. It seems like she’s throwing a temper tantrum because she’s at the end of her rope and that’s exactly what she’s doing.
He really just said skill issue and left
“Bet”
*walks off*
Never seen anyone literally gird their loins before going into battle; she must be serious
You can’t aim your flying kick at someone’s face if you can’t see your own feet.
TIL that skirt can become pant very fast
You know she means business.
Kinda unclear on what WC’s goal is here. He isn’t taking the key back, and that wouldn’t help anyone anyway. She’s supposed to get him to help them fight Jaggy, but she’s not being very convincing. Maybe they should have sent Nyave.
One of the Foremost Truths is that sometimes you just gotta beat the hell out of your dad
real
*nods sagely*
True. No further questions.
correct.
White Chains is finding out just how miserable to be an human being actually is.
I think she intends to teach Solomon what his definition of “ruling” really means.
With how that sagely woodcarver acted, I think Nyave might have turned into a smear.
Ten days is considerably less than thirty-plus years.
There is very little doubt Al-YISUN will triumph. This story isn’t about that, but rather Meti’s question.
Hah! The hero will win, or else lose interestingly. Should they win, though- what will it cost? How will it change them? The stuff of stories is wonderful.
get his fucking ass, White Chain
Why? He did all that was asked of him, gave all that he had left, and prior to that he was the best ruler and leader among the Demiurges. Everyone in these comments treats him horribly as if he were some sort of satanic overlord, but he was the kindest of the Demiurges. When pressured by his people, he threw his own safety and life aside to buy them as much time as he could upon realizing he couldn’t win.
Now White Chain is demanding he take it all back because she doesn’t want to do the job and wants him to do it again. WC is being selfish and childish here, meanwhile he’s earned to rest in his final days. He earned it. She has not.
Because he’s given up.
“Kindest”?
Who the fuck cares if he was the kindest if he was still awful?
Does that woman spending decades of her life in prison for drinking become less bad because the worlds ruled by Incubus would have just turned them into a blood sacrifice or whatever? No, morality doesn’t work like that.
And how exactly did he earn his rest? Someone of his station doesn’t *get* rest. Only knower of the most powerful martial art in existence? Immeasurable use as an advisor to White Chain in her conversion of the empire? Hello?
He gave her the power spitefully, as if to say “I hope this ruins you” and tossed her straight into the deep end. She didn’t even consent, he just shoved the key into her skull! But seriously – he could have just not fucked off.
You really need to fucking let that prisoner go. You have a really huge problem with understanding scale.
Do you think that prisoner was a sole mistake or can you maybe extrapolate that her “unimportance” in the scale of Solomon’s empire is actually emblematic of how fucked up and totalitarian that empire actually was?
That prisoner is an example of the rote brutality of SD’s reign – that she and everyone else accepted that brutality as necessary to maintain order and safety. Except that order was simply egoistic abuse writ cosmic, and the safety was ultimately a joke.
But go off on how “understanding scale” is important
You need to sit down and shut the fuck up unless you have something of more substance to say. “Hurr durr, you just don’t understand the scale of it all”, yeesh
Same energy as
“Okay, yes, some individuals will be miserable, but in the greater scale we’re creating a *lot* of shareholder value”
“What’s an Omelas and why is everyone walking away from it?”
The Celestial Empire was objectively a brutal, fragile polity that was built and maintained on massive amounts of violence. The Celestial Empire was also objectively the best place in the multiverse for an average person to live.
Solomon David was a tyrant who punished his subjects for normal human flaws and treated violence and power as self-justifying principles. He was also one of the most benevolent rulers in multiversal history, and genuinely cared for the well-being of his subjects.
One can scorn egotism, despotism and the abuse of power. One can give credit for good intent, positive outcomes (compared to known alternatives) and small kindnesses.
All of these things can be true without contradiction. Solomon David is not a good person, insofar as such a person can even be said to exist, and his empire was certainly not a good one. But it’s important to give credit where due. People are complicated. Only accepting perfection and scorning “merely” being better than most tends to win you few friends or followers.
Funny that a Devil Tiger would pontificate about proper morals and ethics of violence while your kind’s whole existence is a violent, divine transgression on multiple levels – and the human level was the first to go.
Clearly, the most active angel from the beginning of Creation Itself, who was already ancient when Solomon was shitting his diapers, has not earned her rest.
Clearly.
But anyway, the clash here is not only between two individuals, it’s also two ideologies, and the fact that Solomon basically boasts that there’s only one way this goes : she takes the power on her shoulders, zips it, and carries on as a Demiurge.
She’s saying “eat my leather boots I’m not doing that”.
And, as interesting and worthwhile oppositions of ideology go, both sides can be subtly right about different things.
And both characters, as well.
As a big fan of both characters, I’m really happy that things aren’t as simple as “He’s right” or “she’s right”.
A bit like the fight between Allison/Cio and White Chains in the fourth book. Nobody was just “right”.
(Even if here, Solomon is clearly more in the wrong. Which is normal, he’s kind of one of the biggest tyrants of the Multiverse)
Ah, lovely analysis. A good fight is similar to a good song in a musical. They’re emotional high points where something important must be conveyed in something more than just words.
Though, friend 7 Zombies, I am unsure why you responded to preem Sass as such. White Chain should definitely get his fucking ass.
Ah, thank you, friend Humdum !
But I wasn’t responding to preem Sass, I was trying to respond to 10 Thousand-Calamity Ascension Lifts the Sun’s comment, who tried to explain that Solomon earned his right to rest before the Multiversal Reboot begins, and that White Chains apparently has not.
I considered my duty to explain a bit why such an opinion might be misguided, using the power of litterary analysis.
Because he’s a monumental twat and thinks this little hissy fit of hermitage is somehow okay. He has one moment of realising the folly of his imperial ambitions and now thinks he can just turn his back on the suffering he is absolutely and directly responsible for in one seventh of the multiverse.
He doesn’t get to stuff his power into White Chain and declare it’s not his problem, just because white chain was bold enough to tell him that he was a monster.
Get his ASS, White Chain.
Holy shit everybody be projecting really hard here.
Man every time Solomon shows up everybody starts getting stupid and picking shit hills to die on. It’s getting old.
Well, in partial exculpation of her follow, she does have his shard ….
Lot of projection sure, but Solomon is easily the most fun to analyze so I wouldn’t say these convos are a bad thing.
The main problem is too many people are fetishizing the whole benevolent overlord ideal when this ENTIRE COMIC has been been consistently pointing out how bad absolute power is. Solomon’s entire purpose was to show how even good intentions shatter in the face the of an entire system geared purely towards power through violence.
There’s absolutely nothing he can do about said suffering.
He only rearranged suffering in his empire, but SD cannot possibly conceive of a way to avoid or expunge it, as he fully subscribes to the idea of violence as the first principle.
I get hating on a biblical god-king, but why do you expect him to have correct answers that he somehow chooses to hide away from spite? He’s clearly a broken, hopeless man who’s content to just sit and wait for his death now.
Violence always seems to be the answer everyone prefers.
ITS ALMOST LIKE VIOLENCE AND CONFLICT ARE INTRINSIC TO THE MERE ACT OF BEING ALIVE OR SOMETHING HUH
Doesn’t sound like you disagree with me.
People just love using violence.
As a general rule, even.
It seems our sister has learned well from humans and other bipedal species that, when engaging in battle while wearing a long and potentially restrictive lower body garment, it is best to gird up your loins.
Hells yeah! Girdle them loins!
You know shit is about to go down when she girds up her loins.
Hell hath no fury like an angel scorned.
HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO TEACH YOU THIS LESSON, OLD MAN
(Amazing.)
Which lesson? Some angels being impossible to reason with?
Oof. All the off.
Dayum, that legs
HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TEACH YOU THIS LESSON, OLD MAN?
37 times.
While I’ll still miss the Glory and the Tower, I’m really glad we get to see more of solomon; I was sure we wren’t nearly done with his character.
This is the woman who bruised him when he was at the height of his power and he thought one arm was gonna be enough.
What do you expect? He’s only got the one to work with.
IMHO, it’s after this tussle and a bloody nose that Salami Dave will tell his true heir that she truly has the strength to weild the key.
Leisure Kicks to the face is a heckuva recruitment tactic.
Everyone’s talking about White Chain kicking the fail out of Dave here but nobody’s even mentioning the Simpsons fish.
Why on Wheel do you call this glorious tetrocular ichtyoid like that?
Interesting that his speech is still purple, while White Chains continues to be basic black.
The bearer of the Key is not the bearer of the Word.
I guess we are gonna get another training monta6
See, they are DEFINITELY gonna fuck
there is no emoji in existence that could summarize in one expression the feeling that came through my flimsy brain when I scrolled through the comments and stumbled upon yours.
TO THE ABYSS WITH THIS
You just flash banged my brain. I had several moments where no single thought crossed my mind and I was one with the universe because what other fucking response could I have. God damn.
only after being so horrified by each other’s abject hideousness that they battle for seven days
Now *this* is an exquisite post. Revolting, but very genuinely effective. Bravo.
Mods, seal him with words of binding, cast his power into the abyss, and wipe his name from history.
*sees those legs*
Damn girl, is heaven missing an angel because…
… oh you are an angel
… and you are currently AWOL
Ok then.
Hah, nice.
Solomon will wipe the floor with her next page. He might not be a tyrant but he still remains the only true master of Ki-rata.
If he’s even a tiny bit closer to Royalty than before, he’ll lose on purpose.
That kick had some weird mechanics, She seems to have jumped to the air to deliver the kick but the last panel makes it seem like she somehow attack from the bottom up? Perhaps this world has some weird gravitational anomalies.
“Toon Physics”
Nah Dude, Solomon got kicked so hard his face hit the ice. White Chain is still kicking down, Solomon is just upside down now.
What you’re seeing in the last panel is that even though Solomon attempted to block the kick (which was indeed from above), he is regardless being plunged upside down into the freezing water via the breaking ice.
White Chain has been given this pose before–I think with Kill Boss? When Allison was beating up gangsters during her training. king-of-swords-2-25.
I suspect the pose is an homage to historical angel-focused religious art where there’s a lot of symbolism involving an angel treading on evil (a dragon, a serpent) with the soles of their feet.
In several cultures, stepping on someone, or touching them with your feet, is a really severe insult.
So she’s basically trying to grind someone she sees as a great evil under her feet, religious-symbolism-wise. And also…kick his ass.