This comic has never dissapointed, not one time. It’s always been interesting.
But now, NOW I can say I am trhilled!
I wonder who, if anyone, would come forth as Mottom’s champion, as the Dragon has 01… or perhaps not a person, but an entire army.
I was disappointed two times so far by this comic:
1) one moment with Cio death seeing as it turns out all other characters survived for whatever reason without any troubles during that bad moment
2) second moment is Maya backstory which of course needed to have some bad sexual thingie only cause she is a woman while as we see male heroes don’t need any problem to get 2 swords for free during timeskip and being unmolested by ugly bastards like happened with Maya and didn’t with Zaid in comparison
Just that.
1) Cio is not dead. Or at least not completely dead.
2) I must agree that Zaid showing up all buffed and magical was disappointing. He seems to get everything handed to him on plate, except for Allison.
Zaid was tubed naked for a bit with the demiurges talking about him/around him and was traded, sold and bought. And let’s be honest, do the scheming prideful ever treat others as equal or anything other than property?
Understandably White Chain is a little jealous with her students, but Alison has changed A LOT since her days of fighting crime in the alleys of Throne.
It is widely known that when viewed with sufficient perspective, creation is wheel-shaped. However, when viewed very, very closely, some eminent scholars have suggested all of creation may simply be a bowl of noodles.
It would certainly explain some of the confusion. And the smell.
10 Wobbly Sticks Hold Aloft the Big Fragile Thingy
Gog was willing to help during the fight against the Big Red One. All she asked for was a little validation from the others, but Mottom had to go and be pissy as usual.
Good, I kinda predicted last page that we gonna split forces to get all these Demiurge pokemons back. But I personally thought Maya would go for the Incubus. Allisson going for Gog is fitting.
Oh yeahhh. I’m just enjoying this couple of pages, for plenty of reasons. And… I’m guess another gog-agogical intoxication is coming. Which is probably a good thing.
I just keep wondering, what exact preparations does Maya have to make? Is she going to cook a mega-bowl of tomato noodles and replace all the blood in Incubus’ tower with it to completely ruin his morning beauty routine?
I may be the only one who’s come to this conclusion, but I’m noticing some… borderline sexist writing with Allison. At this point she bears more than a passing resemblence to the “Butch Lesbian” stereotype.
As she’s become stronger and, for lack of a better term, gayer. She’s become increasingly masculine and butch in design. It was one thing when she just had muscles, but now that she’s adopted the stereotypicaly “queer” short hair it’s become a lot more noticeable. Her personality is now far more akin to the gruff action hero, when previously she was shown to be quite feminine. This comes off as a little sexist to me, because it effectively states that a woman HAS to be masculine and butch in order to be strong. Especially since her modern appearance resembles negative stereotypes of lesbians.
I’m going to give Abaddon the benefit of the doubt and assume he didn’t mean to do this. But I have to wonder why he never considered it.
I feel this aspect of Allison’s character has been in the cards for a long time — she might just be feeling herself as a butch lesbian at this time? It might also be a call-out to the design of a certain black swordsman from another series.
I also think Abbadon will undermine this action-hero image in much the same way that he’s undermined the idea of “struggle as a virtue” for as long as KSBD has run.
I’m not sure I can say I’ve seen this “in the cards for a long time”. She used to have much more feminine traits, such as a fondness for Sailor Moon and make-up. These have faded away but we haven’t been given much indication that these were traits she used as a “beard” to hide her true nature, which does come off as “playing into the stereotype”.
It’s true that we can see some early signs of her sexuality, such as her reluctance and uncomfortableness when trying to have sex with Zaid. But that only indicates that she might have been gay all along. A gay woman is not automatically “butch”, and in fact it’s considered a negative stereotype. For that matter, take a note of how Allisons beauty and femininity fade as she gets stronger and more comfortable with her sexuality. That bears more than a passing resemblence to the “Women must become like men in order to be strong” sexist trope, as well as a “Lesbians are just women who are acting butch out of penis envy” kind of narrative (keep in mind, this was a real psychological theory at one point, it’s been used to dismiss and disparage Lesbian women, and Allison recently lamented that she couldn’t pee in an alley like a man).
The Guts thing might be true, there certainly are a lot of parallels. But when applied the way that it has been, it can, and may very well have, play into stereotypes. Again, I’m willing to give Abaddon the benefit of the doubt and assumed he just didn’t consider the unfortunate implications this can provide.
Sure, Abaddon might undermine this image and personality later along the line… but as of right now he hasn’t yet and we don’t have an indication that he will. I’m happy to eat my words if he does mind you, but it would go a long way if he were at least to acknowledge this the way he did with “Bury your gays” and Cio’s death.
I’m not convinced.
I don’t see butch as a negative stereotype in and of itself. I don’t think you intended to say that, but it’s worth stating.
I don’t think it’s ever been explicitly stated that Allison is lesbian, either. It’s feasible she could be bi or identify some other way.
Allison continues to wear make-up. Abaddon even makes a point of showing her apply it. She also continues to make pop culture references – does she need to be referencing Sailor Moon regularly to prove how femme she is?
I personally see her current styling as feminine. The girdle accentuates her waist and the blouson her breasts. If anything Abaddon has taken significant license with Allison’s breast size, as the copious comments on prior pages have pointed out. Having long hair isn’t the only indicator of femininity.
And that’s assuming that how one looks is a good indicator of what one is.
You say that she is currently acting more like an action hero… I think she’s gone through a number of personal changes, but ever since she chose to come back to Throne she’s clearly chosen to commit to her decisions and deal with the consequences. Her current iteration seems a natural outgrowth of that approach.
Throughout the comic Allison’s look has changed substantially. She’s been both more and less masc. As have the looks of all the other characters. I don’t think it’s fair to look at Allison in isolation, particularly as the core message of the comic seems to be that the idea of single all-powerful heroes resolving problems is bankrupt and mutual aid is necessary to create effective change. We have several characters that become more feminine with power upgrades.
Thank you for raising the concern. It’s worth thinking about and being aware of.
I do appreciate the courteous and intellectual response. Forgive me if I get a little long-winded in my response.
I also appreciate the benefit of the doubt given, as I was trying to avoid an absolute statement that “A butch lesbian character is always a negative stereotype”, and I do agree that it’s not a negative stereotype in of itself. However, according to what I’ve read the it *can* be very harmful as it ultimately dissuades women from exploring their sexuality and coming out. According to a study done by “Just like Us”, 68% of gay women surveyed delayed coming out of the closet because of the association with stereotypes like these. They did not see themselves as butch or masculine, and the association of lesbianism with these traits cultivated a sort of identity crisis within. A particularly feminine woman who happens to be gay might even feel revolted at the idea of coming out as she does not find that sort of appearance attractive and thusly feels like she’s unable to find a better fit within the lesbian dating pool. For that matter it can often be harmful to hetero, bi or ace women who happen to feel more comfortable in this sort of style. I have a family member who’s both ace and aro, and she has expressed that because of her butch appearance and style she was pressured and pigeonholed into a relationship with a woman. It doesn’t necessarily cause harm by itself, but it can and the more it’s perpetuated and used the more people are likely to buy into it. I’m not sure I can say Allison’s characterization has gone completely harmful, but like I said it does come off as a little borderline to me.
True, it hasn’t been explicitly stated that Allison is gay as opposed to bi or pan. However, the only male character she’s ever interacted with in anything close to a romantic or sexual way is Zaid. As we saw during their attempted sex scene she wasn’t very enthusiastic about the prospect, whereas she was far more eager to bed Cio. While there were other circumstances going on, I think it’s honestly fair to say we don’t have good evidence that she was ever really attracted to men, whereas we do have plenty for her attraction to women.
You are correct that Allison still wears make-up, I had honestly forgotten the most recent scene where she applied some. It happened so relatively fast and unceremoniously that I just happened to miss it. That one is on me.
No, she doesn’t need to quote sailor moon all the time to be feminine… but she’s also not doing anything else that comes off that way. What feminine traits does she have left other than sexual characteristics?
As for her fashion, I do have to tilt my head at your analysis as a military officer’s jacket, combat boots and dungarees don’t really come off as feminine to me. At most you have the tight girdle around her waist and… honestly I’d say very inconsistent cup size. This one page alone fluctuates from mildly busty to flat-chested. Long hair isn’t necessary for femininity, true, but the fact that it’s added on top of everything else I’ve mentioned is what leads me to point out how stereotypical it comes off as to me.
Your point about how looks are not necessarily a good indicator of what one is seems a tad misapplied here. Because we know Allison is attracted to women and possibly only women, and she seems to be playing into the stereotype here. I think it might have been more poignant if Allison wasn’t in some way queer.
The phrase “Action hero” was used more or less as a placeholder as an example of excessively stereotypical male behavior. I’m not talking about confidence and self-assurance per se, but rather the way at which these traits are shown. The pissing in the alleyway scene does feel a lot like those scenes where male characters whip ’em out to spell their names in the snow if you understand what I mean.
I do somewhat agree with the notion that it’s important to look at an overall view of all the characters and their arcs rather than just take Allison in isolation. However I have to ask, which characters have become more feminine as they grow in power? At most I can name one, White Chain. But her allegory and character arc is centered around transgenderism rather than sexual orientation (in fact, White Chain doesn’t seem to show any attraction to anyone afaik), and even that could come with some potentially unfortunate implications as one could argue as a trans woman she plays into the stereotype of trans women usurping and colonizing femininity with their innate masculinity (itself a negative stereotype for trans women).
Furthermore, there is a key difference between Allison and most of the other characters: Allison is the protagonist and central focus of the story. She naturally gets more screen time and focus whereas most other characters can have their development and traits handwaved. And as I said, she becomes more masculine and stereotypical the more comfortable she is with her sexuality and strength. It’s especially jarring since her time in Jadis’ care showed her reverting to a more feminine style as she became meeker and more withdrawn, compared to how she behaved when she was living with Cio or now.
Still, though I may disagree with you I again appreciate you being civil and I thank you for wanting to talk it out rather than just shout at me.
She’s cut her hair to become Maya’s student, and now it is about three months since then. What hair can she grow over three months? Do you know any other haircut that would look at least borderline OK on a girl with hair this long?
That’s… not really the refutation you think it is. While I’m having a hard time tracking down the name of this logical fallacy, you are effectively saying “There’s a reason in the story that explains this” to dismiss an analysis from a meta perspective.
Think of it like this, say a writer creates a story that features a race of kleptomaniac, illiterate brutes with dark skin. The author may have a reason in the story as to how said race ended up this way (Cursed by the gods, accidental result of genetic engineering etc.), but that doesn’t override the uncomfortable implications that they *chose* to make a dark-skinned race that plays into black stereotypes. It’s the same with Allison here. Yes, she shaved her head to become Maya’s student in the setting, but that does not nullify the fact that Abaddon deliberately wrote her the way he did. Abaddon didn’t transcribe real events (as far as we know) everything that happens in his story only happens because he decided it happened that way, and accidentally or otherwise he wrote a story where a girl becomes increasingly butch as she becomes stronger and more comfortable with being queer.
You also seem to have overlooked everything else about the argument there and focused a bit too much on the haircut thing. In case I didn’t express this properly, that’s a *symptom* of the issue rather than the issue in of its entirety.
And one last thing, if you feel that your argument refutes my own, it should be able to do so even if you’re not being passive aggressive about it. If anything that’s detrimental to your case.
The trope you’re looking for is doylist(out-of-universe/”Meta”) vs watsonian(In-universe). That does actually support your point though 47 overthought.
You’re correct that it’s a fallacy to try to disprove a doylist point with a watsonian evidence, it is equally a fallacy to assume every accurance in a story has a doylist message or theme behind it(commonly called the “english teacher fallacy”) Sometimes the curtains are just blue, as it were.
It’s just as likely that abbadon wanted to draw Allison as a pirate given how her hair works with her new attire.
Thank you, that was the terminology I was having trouble remembering.
I am curious where this “English teacher fallacy” you speak of is cited, because I’m having an even harder time finding that defined anywhere. That might be because Google’s broken now, but the closest I can find is the “Native English Teacher Fallacy” which is something completely different.
With that said though, using the terminology you’ve applied here I don’t think that really applies here, nor do I feel it’s equally fallacious. Perhaps I’m biased but I think it’s less fallacious to misinterpret subtext than it is to argue against something one’s opponent wasn’t arguing at all. As for the issue of assuming every accurance in a story has a doylist theme, I have 2 things to say.
First, notice that I explicitly said and I quote: “I’m going to give Abaddon the benefit of the doubt and assume he didn’t mean to do this. But I have to wonder why he never considered this.” To put it in other words, I don’t have reason to believe Abaddon did this on purpose or out of malice, but rather I feel he didn’t think through the implications carefully enough. At worst I *could* say that he internalized harmful stereotypes that he’s recounting in his work, but I don’t think that’s what happened either when the previous explanation seems most likely.
and 2, that’s more than a little bit of a strawman as I gave no indication that literally every accurance has a doylist message, just this particular one. And to build off your analogy curtains can just be blue. However if their color is emphasized during a moment of deep sadness or directly compared to the nearby ocean during a tumultuous time I start to think there’s meaning behind the author’s choice of curtain color. Such is the same with Allison here, her becoming butch and masculine by itself wouldn’t necessarily mean anything, but the fact that it is directly correlated with how comfortable she is in her sexuality and how strong she can imply something in the subtext.
Telling of what exactly? I can’t read your mind, and passive-aggressive posts like this are counter-productive if you wish to convince me to change my opinions.
If you mean to insinuate that I was demanding Allison remain feminine to appeal to my own aesthetics then I do apologize as that was never my intention. My analysis and for lack of a better word “contention” was simply that she was becoming more stereotypical.
I also did not mean to imply that the “butch lesbian” aesthetic is something that only pops up in stereotypes. Indeed that is very much not true as you yourself can attest. Rather, my criticism was the notion that she plays into this aesthetic and stereotype the stronger and more comfortable she is with her sexuality when she hadn’t indicated that this was her true self before.
If you would indulge me for a moment, have you ever seen the movie “But I’m a Cheerleader”? Long story short it’s a somewhat comedic take on conversion therapy that lampoons why it is ultimately flawed and doesn’t work (It even has Ru Paul as a councilor to further drive home the joke). But a major running gag is that this clueless organization assumes that being gay means one has lost touch with their masculine or feminine side, despite the fact that the lead is incredibly feminine (hence the title). At one point, a rather butch character has a breakdown in therapy and reveals that she’s actually hetero, she just feels more comfortable with a short mohawk and more masculine style. That’s a good subversion of this phenomenon on both accounts. Intentionally or otherwise Abaddon has unfortunately played into this very stereotype. As I’ve stressed multiple times, I don’t think this was intentional but rather an unfortunate implication Abaddon didn’t think through.
Even if I were demanding recognition for this analysis, Abaddon wouldn’t have to go out of his way to say to undo this the way he’s indicated that he will with Cio. Just a simple comment of “I didn’t realize it could come off this way” would be enough.
I do have to ask though. While I don’t know if *you* were one of the people complaining about Cio’s death, I find it more than a little odd that people were quick to jump on the “Bury your gays” accusations but don’t seem to have a problem with a lesbian stereotype that a movie made in the late 90’s went out of its way to subvert. If anything, I’d say Cio’s death is less of a harmful homophobic cliche because a key factor of “Bury your gays” is the notion that they are expendable when the impact of Cio’s death hinged on the fact that she *wasn’t*. So I have to ask, why’s this different?
This comic has never dissapointed, not one time. It’s always been interesting.
But now, NOW I can say I am trhilled!
I wonder who, if anyone, would come forth as Mottom’s champion, as the Dragon has 01… or perhaps not a person, but an entire army.
Thrilled indeed.
I was disappointed two times so far by this comic:
1) one moment with Cio death seeing as it turns out all other characters survived for whatever reason without any troubles during that bad moment
2) second moment is Maya backstory which of course needed to have some bad sexual thingie only cause she is a woman while as we see male heroes don’t need any problem to get 2 swords for free during timeskip and being unmolested by ugly bastards like happened with Maya and didn’t with Zaid in comparison
Just that.
1) Cio is not dead. Or at least not completely dead.
2) I must agree that Zaid showing up all buffed and magical was disappointing. He seems to get everything handed to him on plate, except for Allison.
Zaid was trained off screen, likely by White Chain, I hope we get flash backs.
Zaid was tubed naked for a bit with the demiurges talking about him/around him and was traded, sold and bought. And let’s be honest, do the scheming prideful ever treat others as equal or anything other than property?
Time to collect some keys.
This may be the most content Abbadon has released in one go!
Nyaze and Zaid are staying behind, which makes sense someone has got to run the Republic.
Ooohh I’m excited to see the silly little jester who knows more about the powers of the Words than any of the other wielders could’ve hoped to.
Understandably White Chain is a little jealous with her students, but Alison has changed A LOT since her days of fighting crime in the alleys of Throne.
I am deeply tempted to write a certain sort of fanfic about Vigilant Gaze and Princess because they have some serious Old Couple vibes about them.
I mean, SOMEONE has to carry on Cio’s good work, yes?
and Maya, huhhhh…
you make the ramen!
It is widely known that when viewed with sufficient perspective, creation is wheel-shaped. However, when viewed very, very closely, some eminent scholars have suggested all of creation may simply be a bowl of noodles.
It would certainly explain some of the confusion. And the smell.
im sure gog will be easy to sway. after all, if everyone else is dead, its going to be pretty boring for goggy on its own
Gog was willing to help during the fight against the Big Red One. All she asked for was a little validation from the others, but Mottom had to go and be pissy as usual.
“master?”
Heh
Good, I kinda predicted last page that we gonna split forces to get all these Demiurge pokemons back. But I personally thought Maya would go for the Incubus. Allisson going for Gog is fitting.
Oh yeahhh. I’m just enjoying this couple of pages, for plenty of reasons. And… I’m guess another gog-agogical intoxication is coming. Which is probably a good thing.
Terrifying, also.
Lunch lunch lunch lunch
Allison turned into a certain librarian for a moment there.
I just keep wondering, what exact preparations does Maya have to make? Is she going to cook a mega-bowl of tomato noodles and replace all the blood in Incubus’ tower with it to completely ruin his morning beauty routine?
Lunch sometimes comes unexpected but never unwelcome.
Is Maya’s speech bubble in the penultimate panel bothering anyone else? It looks like it’s coming from someone else offscreen.
I may be the only one who’s come to this conclusion, but I’m noticing some… borderline sexist writing with Allison. At this point she bears more than a passing resemblence to the “Butch Lesbian” stereotype.
As she’s become stronger and, for lack of a better term, gayer. She’s become increasingly masculine and butch in design. It was one thing when she just had muscles, but now that she’s adopted the stereotypicaly “queer” short hair it’s become a lot more noticeable. Her personality is now far more akin to the gruff action hero, when previously she was shown to be quite feminine. This comes off as a little sexist to me, because it effectively states that a woman HAS to be masculine and butch in order to be strong. Especially since her modern appearance resembles negative stereotypes of lesbians.
I’m going to give Abaddon the benefit of the doubt and assume he didn’t mean to do this. But I have to wonder why he never considered it.
I feel this aspect of Allison’s character has been in the cards for a long time — she might just be feeling herself as a butch lesbian at this time? It might also be a call-out to the design of a certain black swordsman from another series.
I also think Abbadon will undermine this action-hero image in much the same way that he’s undermined the idea of “struggle as a virtue” for as long as KSBD has run.
I’m not sure I can say I’ve seen this “in the cards for a long time”. She used to have much more feminine traits, such as a fondness for Sailor Moon and make-up. These have faded away but we haven’t been given much indication that these were traits she used as a “beard” to hide her true nature, which does come off as “playing into the stereotype”.
It’s true that we can see some early signs of her sexuality, such as her reluctance and uncomfortableness when trying to have sex with Zaid. But that only indicates that she might have been gay all along. A gay woman is not automatically “butch”, and in fact it’s considered a negative stereotype. For that matter, take a note of how Allisons beauty and femininity fade as she gets stronger and more comfortable with her sexuality. That bears more than a passing resemblence to the “Women must become like men in order to be strong” sexist trope, as well as a “Lesbians are just women who are acting butch out of penis envy” kind of narrative (keep in mind, this was a real psychological theory at one point, it’s been used to dismiss and disparage Lesbian women, and Allison recently lamented that she couldn’t pee in an alley like a man).
The Guts thing might be true, there certainly are a lot of parallels. But when applied the way that it has been, it can, and may very well have, play into stereotypes. Again, I’m willing to give Abaddon the benefit of the doubt and assumed he just didn’t consider the unfortunate implications this can provide.
Sure, Abaddon might undermine this image and personality later along the line… but as of right now he hasn’t yet and we don’t have an indication that he will. I’m happy to eat my words if he does mind you, but it would go a long way if he were at least to acknowledge this the way he did with “Bury your gays” and Cio’s death.
I’m not convinced.
I don’t see butch as a negative stereotype in and of itself. I don’t think you intended to say that, but it’s worth stating.
I don’t think it’s ever been explicitly stated that Allison is lesbian, either. It’s feasible she could be bi or identify some other way.
Allison continues to wear make-up. Abaddon even makes a point of showing her apply it. She also continues to make pop culture references – does she need to be referencing Sailor Moon regularly to prove how femme she is?
I personally see her current styling as feminine. The girdle accentuates her waist and the blouson her breasts. If anything Abaddon has taken significant license with Allison’s breast size, as the copious comments on prior pages have pointed out. Having long hair isn’t the only indicator of femininity.
And that’s assuming that how one looks is a good indicator of what one is.
You say that she is currently acting more like an action hero… I think she’s gone through a number of personal changes, but ever since she chose to come back to Throne she’s clearly chosen to commit to her decisions and deal with the consequences. Her current iteration seems a natural outgrowth of that approach.
Throughout the comic Allison’s look has changed substantially. She’s been both more and less masc. As have the looks of all the other characters. I don’t think it’s fair to look at Allison in isolation, particularly as the core message of the comic seems to be that the idea of single all-powerful heroes resolving problems is bankrupt and mutual aid is necessary to create effective change. We have several characters that become more feminine with power upgrades.
Thank you for raising the concern. It’s worth thinking about and being aware of.
I do appreciate the courteous and intellectual response. Forgive me if I get a little long-winded in my response.
I also appreciate the benefit of the doubt given, as I was trying to avoid an absolute statement that “A butch lesbian character is always a negative stereotype”, and I do agree that it’s not a negative stereotype in of itself. However, according to what I’ve read the it *can* be very harmful as it ultimately dissuades women from exploring their sexuality and coming out. According to a study done by “Just like Us”, 68% of gay women surveyed delayed coming out of the closet because of the association with stereotypes like these. They did not see themselves as butch or masculine, and the association of lesbianism with these traits cultivated a sort of identity crisis within. A particularly feminine woman who happens to be gay might even feel revolted at the idea of coming out as she does not find that sort of appearance attractive and thusly feels like she’s unable to find a better fit within the lesbian dating pool. For that matter it can often be harmful to hetero, bi or ace women who happen to feel more comfortable in this sort of style. I have a family member who’s both ace and aro, and she has expressed that because of her butch appearance and style she was pressured and pigeonholed into a relationship with a woman. It doesn’t necessarily cause harm by itself, but it can and the more it’s perpetuated and used the more people are likely to buy into it. I’m not sure I can say Allison’s characterization has gone completely harmful, but like I said it does come off as a little borderline to me.
True, it hasn’t been explicitly stated that Allison is gay as opposed to bi or pan. However, the only male character she’s ever interacted with in anything close to a romantic or sexual way is Zaid. As we saw during their attempted sex scene she wasn’t very enthusiastic about the prospect, whereas she was far more eager to bed Cio. While there were other circumstances going on, I think it’s honestly fair to say we don’t have good evidence that she was ever really attracted to men, whereas we do have plenty for her attraction to women.
You are correct that Allison still wears make-up, I had honestly forgotten the most recent scene where she applied some. It happened so relatively fast and unceremoniously that I just happened to miss it. That one is on me.
No, she doesn’t need to quote sailor moon all the time to be feminine… but she’s also not doing anything else that comes off that way. What feminine traits does she have left other than sexual characteristics?
As for her fashion, I do have to tilt my head at your analysis as a military officer’s jacket, combat boots and dungarees don’t really come off as feminine to me. At most you have the tight girdle around her waist and… honestly I’d say very inconsistent cup size. This one page alone fluctuates from mildly busty to flat-chested. Long hair isn’t necessary for femininity, true, but the fact that it’s added on top of everything else I’ve mentioned is what leads me to point out how stereotypical it comes off as to me.
Your point about how looks are not necessarily a good indicator of what one is seems a tad misapplied here. Because we know Allison is attracted to women and possibly only women, and she seems to be playing into the stereotype here. I think it might have been more poignant if Allison wasn’t in some way queer.
The phrase “Action hero” was used more or less as a placeholder as an example of excessively stereotypical male behavior. I’m not talking about confidence and self-assurance per se, but rather the way at which these traits are shown. The pissing in the alleyway scene does feel a lot like those scenes where male characters whip ’em out to spell their names in the snow if you understand what I mean.
I do somewhat agree with the notion that it’s important to look at an overall view of all the characters and their arcs rather than just take Allison in isolation. However I have to ask, which characters have become more feminine as they grow in power? At most I can name one, White Chain. But her allegory and character arc is centered around transgenderism rather than sexual orientation (in fact, White Chain doesn’t seem to show any attraction to anyone afaik), and even that could come with some potentially unfortunate implications as one could argue as a trans woman she plays into the stereotype of trans women usurping and colonizing femininity with their innate masculinity (itself a negative stereotype for trans women).
Furthermore, there is a key difference between Allison and most of the other characters: Allison is the protagonist and central focus of the story. She naturally gets more screen time and focus whereas most other characters can have their development and traits handwaved. And as I said, she becomes more masculine and stereotypical the more comfortable she is with her sexuality and strength. It’s especially jarring since her time in Jadis’ care showed her reverting to a more feminine style as she became meeker and more withdrawn, compared to how she behaved when she was living with Cio or now.
Still, though I may disagree with you I again appreciate you being civil and I thank you for wanting to talk it out rather than just shout at me.
She’s cut her hair to become Maya’s student, and now it is about three months since then. What hair can she grow over three months? Do you know any other haircut that would look at least borderline OK on a girl with hair this long?
That’s… not really the refutation you think it is. While I’m having a hard time tracking down the name of this logical fallacy, you are effectively saying “There’s a reason in the story that explains this” to dismiss an analysis from a meta perspective.
Think of it like this, say a writer creates a story that features a race of kleptomaniac, illiterate brutes with dark skin. The author may have a reason in the story as to how said race ended up this way (Cursed by the gods, accidental result of genetic engineering etc.), but that doesn’t override the uncomfortable implications that they *chose* to make a dark-skinned race that plays into black stereotypes. It’s the same with Allison here. Yes, she shaved her head to become Maya’s student in the setting, but that does not nullify the fact that Abaddon deliberately wrote her the way he did. Abaddon didn’t transcribe real events (as far as we know) everything that happens in his story only happens because he decided it happened that way, and accidentally or otherwise he wrote a story where a girl becomes increasingly butch as she becomes stronger and more comfortable with being queer.
You also seem to have overlooked everything else about the argument there and focused a bit too much on the haircut thing. In case I didn’t express this properly, that’s a *symptom* of the issue rather than the issue in of its entirety.
And one last thing, if you feel that your argument refutes my own, it should be able to do so even if you’re not being passive aggressive about it. If anything that’s detrimental to your case.
The trope you’re looking for is doylist(out-of-universe/”Meta”) vs watsonian(In-universe). That does actually support your point though 47 overthought.
You’re correct that it’s a fallacy to try to disprove a doylist point with a watsonian evidence, it is equally a fallacy to assume every accurance in a story has a doylist message or theme behind it(commonly called the “english teacher fallacy”) Sometimes the curtains are just blue, as it were.
It’s just as likely that abbadon wanted to draw Allison as a pirate given how her hair works with her new attire.
*doesn’t actually
doesn’t actually support your point though 47 overthought.
I hate autocorrect.
Thank you, that was the terminology I was having trouble remembering.
I am curious where this “English teacher fallacy” you speak of is cited, because I’m having an even harder time finding that defined anywhere. That might be because Google’s broken now, but the closest I can find is the “Native English Teacher Fallacy” which is something completely different.
With that said though, using the terminology you’ve applied here I don’t think that really applies here, nor do I feel it’s equally fallacious. Perhaps I’m biased but I think it’s less fallacious to misinterpret subtext than it is to argue against something one’s opponent wasn’t arguing at all. As for the issue of assuming every accurance in a story has a doylist theme, I have 2 things to say.
First, notice that I explicitly said and I quote: “I’m going to give Abaddon the benefit of the doubt and assume he didn’t mean to do this. But I have to wonder why he never considered this.” To put it in other words, I don’t have reason to believe Abaddon did this on purpose or out of malice, but rather I feel he didn’t think through the implications carefully enough. At worst I *could* say that he internalized harmful stereotypes that he’s recounting in his work, but I don’t think that’s what happened either when the previous explanation seems most likely.
and 2, that’s more than a little bit of a strawman as I gave no indication that literally every accurance has a doylist message, just this particular one. And to build off your analogy curtains can just be blue. However if their color is emphasized during a moment of deep sadness or directly compared to the nearby ocean during a tumultuous time I start to think there’s meaning behind the author’s choice of curtain color. Such is the same with Allison here, her becoming butch and masculine by itself wouldn’t necessarily mean anything, but the fact that it is directly correlated with how comfortable she is in her sexuality and how strong she can imply something in the subtext.
as a butch lesbian, i think it’s telling that you think her looking like a butch lesbian is insulting and/or sexist
Telling of what exactly? I can’t read your mind, and passive-aggressive posts like this are counter-productive if you wish to convince me to change my opinions.
If you mean to insinuate that I was demanding Allison remain feminine to appeal to my own aesthetics then I do apologize as that was never my intention. My analysis and for lack of a better word “contention” was simply that she was becoming more stereotypical.
I also did not mean to imply that the “butch lesbian” aesthetic is something that only pops up in stereotypes. Indeed that is very much not true as you yourself can attest. Rather, my criticism was the notion that she plays into this aesthetic and stereotype the stronger and more comfortable she is with her sexuality when she hadn’t indicated that this was her true self before.
If you would indulge me for a moment, have you ever seen the movie “But I’m a Cheerleader”? Long story short it’s a somewhat comedic take on conversion therapy that lampoons why it is ultimately flawed and doesn’t work (It even has Ru Paul as a councilor to further drive home the joke). But a major running gag is that this clueless organization assumes that being gay means one has lost touch with their masculine or feminine side, despite the fact that the lead is incredibly feminine (hence the title). At one point, a rather butch character has a breakdown in therapy and reveals that she’s actually hetero, she just feels more comfortable with a short mohawk and more masculine style. That’s a good subversion of this phenomenon on both accounts. Intentionally or otherwise Abaddon has unfortunately played into this very stereotype. As I’ve stressed multiple times, I don’t think this was intentional but rather an unfortunate implication Abaddon didn’t think through.
Even if I were demanding recognition for this analysis, Abaddon wouldn’t have to go out of his way to say to undo this the way he’s indicated that he will with Cio. Just a simple comment of “I didn’t realize it could come off this way” would be enough.
I do have to ask though. While I don’t know if *you* were one of the people complaining about Cio’s death, I find it more than a little odd that people were quick to jump on the “Bury your gays” accusations but don’t seem to have a problem with a lesbian stereotype that a movie made in the late 90’s went out of its way to subvert. If anything, I’d say Cio’s death is less of a harmful homophobic cliche because a key factor of “Bury your gays” is the notion that they are expendable when the impact of Cio’s death hinged on the fact that she *wasn’t*. So I have to ask, why’s this different?
Three quests, three arcs, powered by noodles.
Gog going to be so happy someone’s thinking about them.. and somewhat positively too!
Hell yes, this is the good shit
How can Meti famously have never taken any students when her sword manual mentions her student repeatedly?
BE CAREFUL NOW ANGEL, THAT’S A LOT OF SODIUM.
I don’t see Zaid getting a homework assignment…