And just like every other encounter with every other demiurge, Jadis proves that all she wants is to afflict someone else with her shortcomings so she can feel better about herself, so she can say “it’s not just me! She agrees to! So I am right!”
I’m starting to think the Demiurges are all just massive losers on the cosmic scale and that part of the story is Allison learning how to not be like them.
The truth of determinism is that it cannot really be observed. If one views the “future” of a deterministic reality, then by necessity that future will change as a result of them gaining this information. For example, if an individual views that in 5 minutes they will decide to purchase a particular flavor of donut- but find that they in fact depised that flavor, then they will instead purchase a different flavor- knowing that their original choice was wrong. However, if that is the case, then when they viewed the future they would not have seen themselves buying the flavor of donut they did not like- but the one they chose as an alternative. But by not seeing the original choice- they do not know that this is the choice they would have made originally and therefore do not know that it is a flavor they despise.. If they do not like the new flavor, then they will make a different choice again- potentially oscillating back to the original decision. If that occurs, then the future become impossible to truly predict. No matter which future they see, the knowledge of that future will cause them to make a different decision and invalidate their original viewing of the future- proving it incorrect and therefore not truly viewing the future.
If a machine or other method gave an individual 100% certain knowledge of the future, then it is truth that it will be this.
The method’s viewing of the future shows a possibility spectrum of every decision that every individual could possibly make, given that knowledge of the future could proliferate beyond the original viewing and potentially alter some of the decisions. Out of every set of decisions made by an individual with this knowledge (whether by direct utilization of the futuresight method or via communication from one who has), if any decision can be considered favorable then the one which would be easiest to execute, come first to the decider’s mind, or otherwise be the most convenient or have the best impact on a future decision, then that decision is the only one the spectrum will show unless the decider has a penchant for contrarianism.
If the decider is contrarian, or if no decisions are favorable, then the spectrum will create a branch- whereby all of the unfavorable decisions and their resulting possible futures are shown since knowledge of any one of them (even if it is the one they, knowing of all decisions, would make) would prompt the decider to choose a different one- thereby necessitating that the method of viewing the future show a different future and thereby prompting another change of decision and so on. Whether it is an infinitely changing thread that constantly oscillates between bad decisions, or a branching tree display, it will show to the viewer every possible permutation of reality- but the only parts which change are the bad ones.
In order for the decider’s decision to be fixed and deterministic, any viewing of the future can not be. It will show all negative possibilities to the viewer- but only for the decisions in which they can be sufficiently involved to influence the outcome of.
And of course, viewing of the past would be much simpler- unless that is time travel is possible for the viewer (either at present or in the future).
For a given viewing of the future to be truthfully “set in amber”, then by necessity the viewer themselves must be uninvolved- regardless of what prevents their involvement- even if it is simply an unwillingness to change their course of action despite knowing of it (eg Fatalism)
This is why Jadis became encased in a block of ice, having her abilities dramatically limited, after she viewed the shape of the universe. The parameters of her machine required a fixed, deterministic view of reality. So to ensure that her viewing would be as such, the machine crippled her and prevented her from being able to meaningfully or sufficiently influence the future.
For any who are yet confused, envision the following scenario:
Say that an individual (not even necessarily you) desire to see the future so that they can make the best possible decisions. They are both able and willing to change what they do based on information they gain from futuresight.
Suppose then that they find a machine, a simple computer perhaps with a keyboard and monitor, capable of showing them the future and this is the truth. For whatever reason, the individual knows this and know with certainty that it is accurate.
Suppose they see that in the future they will be involved in a military operation. but, in contrast with the deterministic understanding of reality, the computer does not show a singular course of events. After the individual watches through the horror of what they will experience and see what terrible decisions they make they resolve to do different.
Then the computer restarts, and shows them again- but everything is different. They go into the operation far better prepared, with seeming foreknowledge of its events. The decisions they make have far better outcomes- until the very end where in a moment of dire importance they make a different decision than the first one they saw in the first run through. They do so without hesitation, and are immediately killed.
They realize that it was folly to resolve to change a decision without first knowing the consequences or knowing what they should do.
The computer restarts again. They see it again. It ends badly, again.
And again.
And again, until eventually the computer has gone through every single sequence of events the individual could go through whilst knowing of them. As it plays this last round, they agree with every single decision- even the terrible ones, knowing that this is for the best. At the very end, they make the decision they know to be the only one that isn’t worse than the others. They take a deep breath.
The computer restarts again. They shudder, wondering “Why did it do that? I’ve already found the best decisions!”
But this time, it shows what happens before the operation. It shows what they would have to do to ensure the “best” sequence of events occurs. The sacrifices they’d need to make. They see that it wasn’t the best course of events afterall.
They’d need to make a different decision. The computer restarts again. This time, it shows not a singular course of events played out like a fast-forwarded movie, but an entire branching tree. A massive sprawl of possibilities and things the individual could possibly do, all branching out from the determined past and shrinking before their very eyes with each passing second. Lights and possibilities snuffed out by the hundreds, or even thousands. Not just as the present cements itself and progresses along the tree, but as their knowledge of the tree itself alters what decisions they view as possibilities are eliminated.
The computer essentially begins to make decisions for them- as it already knows how they think and knows what decisions they will make given what information and therefore knows what they would do if they knew of the consequences of every action before and after. It shrinks and shrinks until it comes down to the barest subset. A singular thread with a few branching paths they then lead back down to the main line- brief detours. Even then, as the individual views the sequence new branches briefly flash into existence only to be again eliminated immediately. The representation of their own inability to decide, their own lack of power to truly alter the outcome of a truly deterministic universe.
The computer shows all this, not because it is in fact possible. But because in order for the computer to show a single, fixed, deterministic future, it had to break the will of the viewer to change it, it had to ensure that the viewer’s mindset would actively seek out the future the computer revealed. To show and reveal to them that there “is no other choice”. Because simply viewing the result does not give them the information they need to make the decisions the result demands, and in an deterministic universe they must make those decisions, so the computer whose parameters demand that they display the determined future must therefore show the viewer the other “Possibilities” even if they really aren’t truly possible. Whatever the viewer’s condition is going into it, they by the end cannot differ from it.
That is, of course, if the assumption is that the computer is in objective fact 100% accurate, and the viewer knows with absolute certainty that this is the case.
In reality, the nature of doubt and perspective ensures that no matter the quality of the machine- the viewer can never truly know it to be accurate. Such a machine would show a fixed outcome only to a viewer who will agree with the result- for a disagreement would therefore change the result and change the display in the aforementioned near-endless manner until the viewer became fed up with the stupid computer, declared it to be wrong, and then went about their life anyways more or less ignoring what they saw- and therefore ensuring that the originally displayed future comes to be.
So it is that noone who can change the shape is capable of seeing it- or if they are, they are made incapable by their viewing of it. As was Jadis, as was Aesma.
In short, if you were to try and show someone the One Possible Future (OPF) that would happen, you would have to convince them that the OPF is the only one that’s possible in the first place. Or otherwise they might have the motivation or ability to change it, and then you can’t guarantee any sort of future.
(The example Preem -2 Returns used is a computer that pretty much shows every possible future but railroads you into one by convincing you that any choice you could make wouldn’t work correctly. For a simple example, think like Undertale or any multi-choice/route game, but no matter how you play the game, you get the same ending. You’d stop trying and just play the same or most efficient way, probably, beause the end result will always be the same)
What will (hopefully) happen to Allison is the last part – not buying into the line of thinking and going about to make your own future, anyways, no matter what the ‘objective’ source says.
No such timeline: One excludes others, True or free.
Behold this infinity: Higher than one, Lower than two.
None are three: Follow the path, Knowingly or not.
If Jadis percieves time in a nonlinear way, then she’d know that something that exists briefly still exists, and awareness of the ends of something doesn’t invalidate its middle. I think she’s running a grift, looking to give Allison the laugh.
This hole leads to the lowest point of all. The abyss from which one may look up and see all creation piled up above themselves. But such depths are most fertile for the cultivation of a Rising King.
I can’t help but feel like declarations such as “your life is futile and nothing can change its course” are more of a challenge than a statement of fact. After all, the universe is built on lies told so perfectly and confidently that reality – whatever that is- has no choice but to believe.
A beetle could never annihilate a lion. A fighter cannot cut without a sword A mortal cannot even strike a demiurge. Until the day they all do
I’m really of the mindset that she has the knowledge base to process this, but on the other hand, it’s all very real and in the middle of a lot of trauma she’s not being given time to recover from.
Mentally and emotionally, I mean. Physically she’s doing great for where she was when Jadis picked her up.
Philosophy Is Math Sans Rigor, Sense, Or Practicality
If everything is determined, from the perspective of those in that universe it still requires you to participate for the determined outcome- without ever realizing that you were always going to take a step, you still had to take a step through your own volition. So in a way you still had a chance to choose, and in limited perspective made a choice that only ever had one outcome. Imagine, then, being able to perceive not just the outcome of that, but also that which lead you to that, and that which lead you to that, ad. Infinitum. Being able to see this would in theory give you the true ability to choose, you can make perfectly informed choices beyond what you were destined to do without realizing. Then, there are a few possibilities and how that would affect a person:
1. Any changes you make from what you were supposed to do continuously update to show now what will happen for anything you do. Or even not depending on how small an action was. It would look like -I think- that no matter what, there is a pre-determined outcome. It could also be overwhelming, seeing everything you will do even when you do something you weren’t supposed to do. In all possible choices. It might be better to do what would always happen just so you won’t have to see everything and anything all at once. Or pointless to change because there could always be things that will always happen regardless of your own individual choices. (Like how in our world, no matter what, there will be an end)
2. You get only a snapshot of everything, perfectly, but it never updates. This would be more terrifying to me. The security of knowing the outcome and what everyone and everything is going to do, but only if nothing changes. Ever. Even if your fated for something terrible it might be paralyzing to try out anything new for fear of the vast unknown that would await you.
Not so much a possibility, but an outcome of either case is that I don’t think even with perfect perception of everything you would be able to tell which it would be. At least for me having the impression of the universe upon my mind and the option of loosing that just to test would be terrifying.
Taking into account that it appears the universe in this comic, the wheel, is trapped in a loop. And assuming Jadis has perfect perception. She would probably know this, or have some inkling. Or at least we can at first assume she does for now. Ensuring everything always happens as it will have always happened would ensure that in the end the loop will happen. Every terrible thing will happen again and again, but it would also be undone again and again. All you would have to do is play the perfect puppet on strings. You would never have to agonize over anything because of the cyclical nature of everything being done and undone.
I don’t have much more to say or a conclusion to this, but I can’t help but remember the unnerving smile Jadis made when saving Allison. How it left for a moment when Allison expressed pain. Interesting reaction to someone who knows what will happen and that it was going to happen.
“You tell me it’s a cruel world and we’re all just running around in circles. I know that. I’ve been on this earth just as many days as you. When I choose to see the good side of things, I’m not being naive. It is strategic and necessary. It’s how I’ve learned to survive through everything.”
Determinism is a failing game as it is. For where it stands now Alison? Struggle and claw at hope and kindness. It is fight resplendent.
And just like every other encounter with every other demiurge, Jadis proves that all she wants is to afflict someone else with her shortcomings so she can feel better about herself, so she can say “it’s not just me! She agrees to! So I am right!”
And that’s why they’re demiurges.
I’m starting to think the Demiurges are all just massive losers on the cosmic scale and that part of the story is Allison learning how to not be like them.
CLGVER is observant!
allison, I’m going to trust you to be a dumbass here. please. Nothing has meaning, but it is still up to you to create meaning anyway.
Reach heaven through being such a dumbass total existential despair has no effect.
Ignorance of what is impossible is how one does the impossible, in this universe.
[Allison]: “Jadis, I mean, who gives a shit? Can I go fight Jagganoth now?”
This would seem the perfect time for Zoss to make another appearance. But the last time it sounded like it really was the last time.
“Why don’t you see for yourself?”
uh oh
Hopefully Allison has the Zaphod Beeblebrox realization that she is in fact the Most Important Person in the Universe and breaks the Shape.
Otherwise, phooey on this entire thing.
EVERYTHING DOUGNUT
(sorry, not sorry)
BAGEL. I MEANT BAGEL. HAHA.
The truth of determinism is that it cannot really be observed. If one views the “future” of a deterministic reality, then by necessity that future will change as a result of them gaining this information. For example, if an individual views that in 5 minutes they will decide to purchase a particular flavor of donut- but find that they in fact depised that flavor, then they will instead purchase a different flavor- knowing that their original choice was wrong. However, if that is the case, then when they viewed the future they would not have seen themselves buying the flavor of donut they did not like- but the one they chose as an alternative. But by not seeing the original choice- they do not know that this is the choice they would have made originally and therefore do not know that it is a flavor they despise.. If they do not like the new flavor, then they will make a different choice again- potentially oscillating back to the original decision. If that occurs, then the future become impossible to truly predict. No matter which future they see, the knowledge of that future will cause them to make a different decision and invalidate their original viewing of the future- proving it incorrect and therefore not truly viewing the future.
If a machine or other method gave an individual 100% certain knowledge of the future, then it is truth that it will be this.
The method’s viewing of the future shows a possibility spectrum of every decision that every individual could possibly make, given that knowledge of the future could proliferate beyond the original viewing and potentially alter some of the decisions. Out of every set of decisions made by an individual with this knowledge (whether by direct utilization of the futuresight method or via communication from one who has), if any decision can be considered favorable then the one which would be easiest to execute, come first to the decider’s mind, or otherwise be the most convenient or have the best impact on a future decision, then that decision is the only one the spectrum will show unless the decider has a penchant for contrarianism.
If the decider is contrarian, or if no decisions are favorable, then the spectrum will create a branch- whereby all of the unfavorable decisions and their resulting possible futures are shown since knowledge of any one of them (even if it is the one they, knowing of all decisions, would make) would prompt the decider to choose a different one- thereby necessitating that the method of viewing the future show a different future and thereby prompting another change of decision and so on. Whether it is an infinitely changing thread that constantly oscillates between bad decisions, or a branching tree display, it will show to the viewer every possible permutation of reality- but the only parts which change are the bad ones.
In order for the decider’s decision to be fixed and deterministic, any viewing of the future can not be. It will show all negative possibilities to the viewer- but only for the decisions in which they can be sufficiently involved to influence the outcome of.
And of course, viewing of the past would be much simpler- unless that is time travel is possible for the viewer (either at present or in the future).
For a given viewing of the future to be truthfully “set in amber”, then by necessity the viewer themselves must be uninvolved- regardless of what prevents their involvement- even if it is simply an unwillingness to change their course of action despite knowing of it (eg Fatalism)
This is why Jadis became encased in a block of ice, having her abilities dramatically limited, after she viewed the shape of the universe. The parameters of her machine required a fixed, deterministic view of reality. So to ensure that her viewing would be as such, the machine crippled her and prevented her from being able to meaningfully or sufficiently influence the future.
For any who are yet confused, envision the following scenario:
Say that an individual (not even necessarily you) desire to see the future so that they can make the best possible decisions. They are both able and willing to change what they do based on information they gain from futuresight.
Suppose then that they find a machine, a simple computer perhaps with a keyboard and monitor, capable of showing them the future and this is the truth. For whatever reason, the individual knows this and know with certainty that it is accurate.
Suppose they see that in the future they will be involved in a military operation. but, in contrast with the deterministic understanding of reality, the computer does not show a singular course of events. After the individual watches through the horror of what they will experience and see what terrible decisions they make they resolve to do different.
Then the computer restarts, and shows them again- but everything is different. They go into the operation far better prepared, with seeming foreknowledge of its events. The decisions they make have far better outcomes- until the very end where in a moment of dire importance they make a different decision than the first one they saw in the first run through. They do so without hesitation, and are immediately killed.
They realize that it was folly to resolve to change a decision without first knowing the consequences or knowing what they should do.
The computer restarts again. They see it again. It ends badly, again.
And again.
And again, until eventually the computer has gone through every single sequence of events the individual could go through whilst knowing of them. As it plays this last round, they agree with every single decision- even the terrible ones, knowing that this is for the best. At the very end, they make the decision they know to be the only one that isn’t worse than the others. They take a deep breath.
The computer restarts again. They shudder, wondering “Why did it do that? I’ve already found the best decisions!”
But this time, it shows what happens before the operation. It shows what they would have to do to ensure the “best” sequence of events occurs. The sacrifices they’d need to make. They see that it wasn’t the best course of events afterall.
They’d need to make a different decision. The computer restarts again. This time, it shows not a singular course of events played out like a fast-forwarded movie, but an entire branching tree. A massive sprawl of possibilities and things the individual could possibly do, all branching out from the determined past and shrinking before their very eyes with each passing second. Lights and possibilities snuffed out by the hundreds, or even thousands. Not just as the present cements itself and progresses along the tree, but as their knowledge of the tree itself alters what decisions they view as possibilities are eliminated.
The computer essentially begins to make decisions for them- as it already knows how they think and knows what decisions they will make given what information and therefore knows what they would do if they knew of the consequences of every action before and after. It shrinks and shrinks until it comes down to the barest subset. A singular thread with a few branching paths they then lead back down to the main line- brief detours. Even then, as the individual views the sequence new branches briefly flash into existence only to be again eliminated immediately. The representation of their own inability to decide, their own lack of power to truly alter the outcome of a truly deterministic universe.
The computer shows all this, not because it is in fact possible. But because in order for the computer to show a single, fixed, deterministic future, it had to break the will of the viewer to change it, it had to ensure that the viewer’s mindset would actively seek out the future the computer revealed. To show and reveal to them that there “is no other choice”. Because simply viewing the result does not give them the information they need to make the decisions the result demands, and in an deterministic universe they must make those decisions, so the computer whose parameters demand that they display the determined future must therefore show the viewer the other “Possibilities” even if they really aren’t truly possible. Whatever the viewer’s condition is going into it, they by the end cannot differ from it.
That is, of course, if the assumption is that the computer is in objective fact 100% accurate, and the viewer knows with absolute certainty that this is the case.
In reality, the nature of doubt and perspective ensures that no matter the quality of the machine- the viewer can never truly know it to be accurate. Such a machine would show a fixed outcome only to a viewer who will agree with the result- for a disagreement would therefore change the result and change the display in the aforementioned near-endless manner until the viewer became fed up with the stupid computer, declared it to be wrong, and then went about their life anyways more or less ignoring what they saw- and therefore ensuring that the originally displayed future comes to be.
So it is that noone who can change the shape is capable of seeing it- or if they are, they are made incapable by their viewing of it. As was Jadis, as was Aesma.
Yo can someone drop a TL;DR or something. ya boy is lazy
TL;DR It’s basically the Concept Behind the Ultimate Answer to the Ultimate Question; you get the Answer First before getting the Question.
Or something. They get really confusing somewhere in the middle.
My interpretation of it was that:
In short, if you were to try and show someone the One Possible Future (OPF) that would happen, you would have to convince them that the OPF is the only one that’s possible in the first place. Or otherwise they might have the motivation or ability to change it, and then you can’t guarantee any sort of future.
(The example Preem -2 Returns used is a computer that pretty much shows every possible future but railroads you into one by convincing you that any choice you could make wouldn’t work correctly. For a simple example, think like Undertale or any multi-choice/route game, but no matter how you play the game, you get the same ending. You’d stop trying and just play the same or most efficient way, probably, beause the end result will always be the same)
What will (hopefully) happen to Allison is the last part – not buying into the line of thinking and going about to make your own future, anyways, no matter what the ‘objective’ source says.
Upon second glance, I think I need to work on my paraphrasing skills. But I hope you get what I meant.
(Now I finally understand why ‘One who rules the wheel cannot break it!’)
No such timeline: One excludes others, True or free.
Behold this infinity: Higher than one, Lower than two.
None are three: Follow the path, Knowingly or not.
I choose option 5.
if WILL is an illusion then explain why one is able to use it to hack the universe
this philosophy may be striking but it is anathema to the thing which lets jagganoth and solomon and meti hoard power, so it is a useless philosophy
Seems like seeing the shape made Jadis really gullible. Look at her, believing that the Universe exists.
We are reaching critical levels of nihilism!
If Jadis percieves time in a nonlinear way, then she’d know that something that exists briefly still exists, and awareness of the ends of something doesn’t invalidate its middle. I think she’s running a grift, looking to give Allison the laugh.
Why? What’s the point of telling a mortal things it can’t comprehend and that will only distress it? Mean. Like teaching your cat math.
Teaching your cat math is a fulfilling experience for both parties, and I protest it is nothing like the aforementioned scenario.
This hole leads to the lowest point of all. The abyss from which one may look up and see all creation piled up above themselves. But such depths are most fertile for the cultivation of a Rising King.
Oh, word? We checkin’ out the wheel?
Hold up, I got some glasses for viewing for the eclipse safely, should I bring them? Like, maybe they will help.
Yeah that should probably do it.
Nah!
In previous trials, there was only one recorded case of terminal face melting.
I can’t help but feel like declarations such as “your life is futile and nothing can change its course” are more of a challenge than a statement of fact. After all, the universe is built on lies told so perfectly and confidently that reality – whatever that is- has no choice but to believe.
A beetle could never annihilate a lion. A fighter cannot cut without a sword A mortal cannot even strike a demiurge. Until the day they all do
youre supposed to be a philosophy major, allison
She’s missed a few classes.
She still graduated.
I’m really of the mindset that she has the knowledge base to process this, but on the other hand, it’s all very real and in the middle of a lot of trauma she’s not being given time to recover from.
Mentally and emotionally, I mean. Physically she’s doing great for where she was when Jadis picked her up.
Jadis has viewed the Shape of the Wheel.
Wheels can be broken.
Break the wheel lest ye be broken upon it!
No lie, I’m not sure my mental health can cope with the next few pages. Not after the past few years.
But maybe I’ve . . . always . . . known . . .
I DON’T WANNA BE NOTHIIIIIIING !!!!
And with the fiery blade of WANNA cut yourself into a new shape. One that pleases you.
If everything is determined, from the perspective of those in that universe it still requires you to participate for the determined outcome- without ever realizing that you were always going to take a step, you still had to take a step through your own volition. So in a way you still had a chance to choose, and in limited perspective made a choice that only ever had one outcome. Imagine, then, being able to perceive not just the outcome of that, but also that which lead you to that, and that which lead you to that, ad. Infinitum. Being able to see this would in theory give you the true ability to choose, you can make perfectly informed choices beyond what you were destined to do without realizing. Then, there are a few possibilities and how that would affect a person:
1. Any changes you make from what you were supposed to do continuously update to show now what will happen for anything you do. Or even not depending on how small an action was. It would look like -I think- that no matter what, there is a pre-determined outcome. It could also be overwhelming, seeing everything you will do even when you do something you weren’t supposed to do. In all possible choices. It might be better to do what would always happen just so you won’t have to see everything and anything all at once. Or pointless to change because there could always be things that will always happen regardless of your own individual choices. (Like how in our world, no matter what, there will be an end)
2. You get only a snapshot of everything, perfectly, but it never updates. This would be more terrifying to me. The security of knowing the outcome and what everyone and everything is going to do, but only if nothing changes. Ever. Even if your fated for something terrible it might be paralyzing to try out anything new for fear of the vast unknown that would await you.
Not so much a possibility, but an outcome of either case is that I don’t think even with perfect perception of everything you would be able to tell which it would be. At least for me having the impression of the universe upon my mind and the option of loosing that just to test would be terrifying.
Taking into account that it appears the universe in this comic, the wheel, is trapped in a loop. And assuming Jadis has perfect perception. She would probably know this, or have some inkling. Or at least we can at first assume she does for now. Ensuring everything always happens as it will have always happened would ensure that in the end the loop will happen. Every terrible thing will happen again and again, but it would also be undone again and again. All you would have to do is play the perfect puppet on strings. You would never have to agonize over anything because of the cyclical nature of everything being done and undone.
I don’t have much more to say or a conclusion to this, but I can’t help but remember the unnerving smile Jadis made when saving Allison. How it left for a moment when Allison expressed pain. Interesting reaction to someone who knows what will happen and that it was going to happen.
Bagel time?
The thing is what is Allison’s googly eye?
To paraphrase from another meanderer like me:
“You tell me it’s a cruel world and we’re all just running around in circles. I know that. I’ve been on this earth just as many days as you. When I choose to see the good side of things, I’m not being naive. It is strategic and necessary. It’s how I’ve learned to survive through everything.”
Determinism is a failing game as it is. For where it stands now Alison? Struggle and claw at hope and kindness. It is fight resplendent.
Young Allison Ruth she was just 24, when the demiurge put her in a very strange machine, it was designed to behold the complete fabric of reality-
Oof yeah, that’s just not as catchy
Fucking nihilists, Dude.
Damn bruh you got me feeling existential n shit