BREAKER OF INFINITIES 4-171 to 4-172
Chapter: 4
A stagnant flow of endings. Un-time unbound. Merging to form the multi-none
A sickly dance of matter, malignantly benign. Greeting the chasm – unbearable, sublime.
-Meshuggah, “Dehumanization”, Catch 33 (2005)
her father is an idiot. what use is power if it is not used to help the powerless
What use is power without direction? Focus? Power for Power’s sake betrays a lack of any ideology. Even the Wheel-Turning King has goals, desires. There are many reasons to desire power, and while I prefer yours, I think this man has none whatsoever. Why then, is he so intent on forcing this power on his daughter.?
Perhaps he intentionally left the purpose of “power” unnamed so that his daughter would decide that for herself?
After all, if he was trying to raise a proper Key-Bearer, he’d want someone capable of determining their own direction. So he drilled a desire for power into her head and let her figure out the rest.
With all due respect, that’s possibly the worst way to accomplish that goal. He’s pretty well established a system wherein she feels completely helpless, and lacks agency. She is operating from a place of fear, because that’s all he’s ever taught her, and it’s also all he’s ever known as well.
Power for its own sake is the drive of a fearful man. Security is not won by power, but by wisdom. All the swords in the world cannot save you from a falling tree in the dead of night.
Nobody said he was good at accomplishing his goals. He’s just got a rock in his head, don’t mean he knows anything about teaching anybody how to use it. Or that he’s particularly worthy to be a dad.
You are all wrong. Now it is Alisson that is using the power of the One Key to show Jadis some truths.
Where is Maya?
If people were smart this entire comic wouldn’t be happening. Dumb decisions make for great action.
This online shop delivers super fast.
In the Half-Step City they ask those who aspire to power: “What is the first virtue?”
There are many answers. Courage. Wisdom. Temperance. Justice. But a certain man, descendant of Solomon David, once answered thus: “Ambition.” When, as is tradition, they asked him the second question, “What is Ambition?”, he said this:
“Ambition is the driving force that turns a prole into a citizen, or a citizen into a king. Other virtue cannot suffice on its own; skill and courage without ambition leave a soldiers a mere sergeant; skill and wisdom leave a teacher a mere tutor.”
But he also said:
“Ambition is never the last virtue. Ambition needs a goal, a lofty goal needs a lofty method, and excellence in any thing is a virtue itself. Where there is the first virtue there will be a second. But it is always the first.”
You lost me with the line “skill and courage without ambition leave a soldiers a mere sergeant; skill and wisdom leave a teacher a mere tutor” as if either of those situations were bad. No army could function without the equivalent of a sergeants bridging the gap between soldier and commanding officers.
All labor has value and should be respected. Looking down on others or their labor isn’t ambition, that is arrogance.
You’ve extrapolated a bit too much from his definition. He never said that being a sergeant is bad by itself. It is alright if not everyone masters both ambition and skill.
However, we should admire those who have both ambition and skill, for they are those who will open the path for others. Admiration for the great doesn’t negate respect for the adequate, even if the quote above might have made it seem that way.
You’ve understood perfectly. An army (or a university) requires a large number of unambitious men to function, and tolerates their lack of ambition to the extent that their labor is necessary; but does not reward them.
What is ideology but the mask covering power? In the end, what everything comes down to is who wields power, the ability to have agency, the ability to exist as a subject rather than an object. Whether power is hoarded in the hands of the few or wrenched free by the many, that is the only true difference between the righteous and the villainous. Grant the people’s prayers? You would only be caging them in a prison with softer bars.
You make a valid point about power and purpose. It’s puzzling why this man is pushing power onto his daughter without a clear goal or ideology. Maybe there’s more to the story or hidden motives. It’s essential to consider the consequences of such actions.
Or at least to make things better! Why not use that power to make more infrastructure, that allows you AND EVERYONE ELSE more power?
It’s like people try to get bigger slices of a pie, instead of realizing that you can work together to make the pie bigger, and people will love you for it.
Something tells me that Janus is the type to think that if everyone is powerful, then that means that no one is powerful by comparison. To share even a bit of power would be to risk someone else becoming more powerful.
Everyone powerful = Universal War
Not share power- people with power don’t want to share it. No, BUILD with it! If you have armies, they can lay roads, make barns, stripmine, dig even! If you can move stars and change the geography with your mind, do so to make things easier or better! It lets you practice projecting your power, demonstrating it’s use, and lets you amass resources and economy!
Lifting everyone else up also lifts YOU, and personal power like the Keys are effectively unmatchable EXCEPT by another Key (or someone like Jagganoth/Solomon David, who are exceptional anyway and would probably find a way to kick god in the beanbags if they could).
Even if you fail, or your results crush some, you will have enough goodwill to have people WILLING to defend you out of respect and affection instead of only fear…. Because you, even if you are evil, can be the lesser evil, and you help those who are willing to follow you.
George Orwell: “The purpose of power is power.”
Nihilism, I suppose, is the death of altruism.
Not necessarily; it just makes it more valuable. To do the right thing “without the hope of Heaven, or the fear of hell’s fire.”
Altruism inherently requires you to believe that the lives of others have some value that is not contingent on your personal affairs, which is contrary to nihilism.
Why? nihilism’s rejection of any meaning means that we are free to engage in any action, including altruism, which is no more or less meaningful than any other action. To say that nihilism precludes altruism is to impose conditions on nihilism — in other words, to deny nihilism.
“what use is power if it is not used to help the powerless” Is something idealistic people like you would say. The father was clearly not like you.
He is a fool in an old-style hat and coat. Or, at least, was fucked up by one.
Half the time soppy-stern and half at [his daughter’s] throat?
Those closest to power do not use it, they hear it speak
“Why, to wield against the powerless for the benefit of the powerful, young man.”
Power. Authority. Leverage. Influence. These things have no purpose other than to exert the will of those wielding it upon others. They are Force, pure and simple. You can welcome others to warm by your fire, or you can wield your fire to burn, and all sorts in between.
lol
At the end of everything,there is only a hole
“Nothing is going to save us forever, but a lot of things can save us today.”
In the Half-Step City they ask those who aspire to power: “What is the first virtue?”
There are many answers. Courage. Wisdom. Temperance. Justice. But a certain man, descendant of Solomon David, once answered thus: “Ambition.” When, as is tradition, they asked him the second question, “What is Ambition?”, he said this:
“Ambition is the driving force that turns a prole into a citizen, or a citizen into a king. Other virtue cannot suffice on its own; skill and courage without ambition leave a soldiers a mere sergeant; skill and wisdom leave a teacher a mere tutor.”
But he also said:
“Ambition is never the last virtue. Ambition needs a goal, a lofty goal needs a lofty method, and excellence in any thing is a virtue itself. Where there is the first virtue there will be a second. But it is always the first.”
Again?
You are repeating yourself.
Hiccups?
Try Dr. Nadia Om, she may be able to help you.
Tired of your home? Sick of comfort? Come to the Hole in the Vacant Lot out back of the Ralph’s and huddle with Us.
Who are we? Good question.
Come to the Hole in the Vacant Lot out back of the Ralph’s and huddle with Us.
Why do we want you to come? Why did we take the time to write this comment? We understand you are confused.
But: Hole, Vacant Lot, Ralph’s, huddle, Us.
For the low-low price. Act today. Or tomorrow. Not Wednesday. Wednesday is no good for Us.
Anyway, this comment is getting long, so just come on down to the Hole in the Vacant Lot out back of the Ralph’s and huddle with Us.
Or else.
(Source: Welcome To Nightvale)
Butt hole?
At the end of everything, hold onto anything
We rejoin the great Combine,
We fall like tears into the great Ocean,
We become undone.
We become.
Become.
As the Red martyr with a speaking blade sang:
Stabbing pain for the feeling
Now your wound’s never healing
‘Til you’re numb, oh, it’s begun
Before we all become one, oh
Oh, we all, we all become one
Oh, we all, we all become one
Oh, we all, we all become one
Oh, we all, we all become one
Stop grieving, start leaving
Before we all become one
Run
Oh we all, we all become
I suppose, in the end, she must not have been all that free.
In the end, she discovered nihilism. And is not free
I would put forth that nihilism is actually a very freeing worldview. Consider; any obligation becomes dust. You have no responsibility to anything. If you interpret nihilism and religion to be mutually exclusive, as I do, then there’s no cosmic rules for you to follow and no god to judge you. Everything is equally meaningless, so do whatever.
Stare into infinity, young Jadis, and see how your will crumbles. See how free you really are. You cannot break infinity, only be broken by it. That option remains for another…
If there’s a hole, there’s a goal
I Will Not Fuck the Void Machine
Some say the path to power may lead to actions some consider… unnatural.
Don’t worry… In Soviet Throne, Void Machine screws you!
Best answer!
Not with THAT attitude!
Sucks for you, I WILL fuck the void machine
The path to Royalty is a vigorous thrusting motion, into the infinite Void.
What? Are you chicken? Huh? Bawk-bawk?
‘fuck everything’ taken to its logical extreme
Isn’t Jagger doing just that, right now?
““Pie Iesu Domine, dona eis requiem…” ::thwack::
True kinghood is when you aint got shit all over you
You also need a sword. Because swords are cool. Ideally one that’s been lying in water for a long time and hasn’t rusted. One that sings. Now that’s a cool sword. Cool enough to make you king – for a time.
i hear there’s some watery tart lying in a pond distributing swords
That hardly seems like the basis for a system of government…
Now you see the violence inherent in the system!
There’s another *thwack* between the verses
I implore you: stop hitting yourself
PIES IESU DOMINE
DONA EIS REQUIEM
THWACK
I want to comfort sad nihilist mommy
honestly I support your endeavor, go ahead.
I also wish for sad nihilist mommy to be happy
Do not give into the Everything Bagel of Infinite Despair.
At this juncture, I don’t think we can count on Allison to don googly-eyes. Bagels may be the breakfast of relevance
*shhhhlorp*
Between the idea
And the reality
Between the motion
And the act
Falls the Shadow
For Thine is the Kingdom
Or, as the kids say, BABAFF 😔
For some reason I had never considered what Jadis’s past had been like until now.
i almost pity the Witch in Glass— but she drew herself back from Mastery when she sought external validation. she saw the shape of the universe, but she did not see that it was “I”.
I mean that dosnt matter, she dosnt have the power to change things, to defy fate. It’s like saying you are Jesus, you can yell it all you want, belive as much as you wish, dosnt change the fact that you are just making shit up, no more no less.
The only one who might be able to defy this is Allison, as the master key allows you to potentially make new rules.
Now that I think about it, in the grand scheme of things, what is the difference between zoss having the key, and Allison having it? Is it that the demiurges just got used to zoss and learned how to not give him a reason to kick their asses anymore, and K6BD is just an unknown that they are afraid is going to shake things up,
or is something more important going to occur when the prophecy as described definatively occurs?
Unless I forgot something and we have a vuage idea of why everybody seems to treat this happening as something worse than jagganoths petty apocalypse?
You are mistaken. The name of God is I. We are, all of us, the child of YISUN, the Heir of Zoss.
Hansa saw the shape in his pipe, that which was his fated end. And he kept the pipe, if only to remind himself that all things have an end, yet not being bound by it. For to know that you struggle with eternity and to do so anyways is the essence of ROYALTY.
Zoss is a master of the rules. He knows the rules so intimately, so very well that these rules bind him. They bind him to the Wheel, to circularity, to the inevitable end of fate. Maybe he cannot think outside the rules anymore, or maybe it’s just not his role to do so.
Allison is learning of the rules, and hates them. She will maybe never master them, for they are anathema to her, and in time she may break them, break the wheel and free fate once and for all.
But that would imply that free will exists.
And we know it doesn’t.
So…sorry, that can’t happen.
This one considers it fruitless to argue about the nature of a wheel broken. Is it the natural result of causality that free will does not exist, or is it a result of being bound to the wheel?
It is worth contemplation, this one thinks, for what greater way to express free will than to change the rules such that it exists where it could not possible have before?
But Allison can’t express free will. Because free will doesn’t exist in KSBD. This has been stated multiple times both in the text itself and outside of the text by the creator.
I don’t like it, I think it’s a bad storytelling decision; I still have to accept that if I want to engage with the story.
It has been stated that free will does not exist, but is that an unchanging state? This one believes that free will maybe be dependent upon the turning of the wheel, and the current state likely means that free will cannot exist until the cycle is broken.
All roads lead back to the same start, over and over again. Either we see free will expressed by the impossible usurping of the turning wheel, or we see free will denied by having the cycle begin anew.
The Wheel will Turn as long as it is on a path. What happens when the ground crumbles?
Free will might not be real, but it’s impossible to live without believing it somehow exists. Not believing in your own agency is a poison to morals and will make you passive.
Don’t blame me, Abaddon is the one who made the story. I’m just taking what he said to be true and thinking about what it means for the characters and the world they live in.
Allison can’t believe in her own agency because she has been shown, indisputably, that agency doesn’t exist. It’s like if I take you to a zoo, showed you the zebras with their black and white striped fur, let you see them up close and pet them with your hands and examine them with your eyes to see how they are black and white, and later on you hear someone say that zebras are naturally as colorful as the rainbow. They’re not. You have personally seen that zebras are black and white. A person can believe all sorts of things, that doesn’t mean they are found to be true when examined.
KSBD is a world where the characters and the creator himself have stated time and time again that free will does not exist. Why are you so intent on ignoring what the work is saying?
i said that free will might not be real, but we must live as though it is.
Even if we can prove that the universe is deterministic and everything can be calculated, to live without believing in your own agency is a poison to the mind.
I don’t believe free will exists at all, but to act on that belief, or in this case, certainty, is the worst thing I could do.
To function, and to at least try to be a better person, you must act as if you have agency and others do too.
Are you the same guy who whined endlessly and shit his pants when White Chain went through her apotheosis for obviously transphobic reasons he desperately tried to shove back into his shirt
or are you just annoying about how the comic is definitely going to end badly
One cannot tell how the story will end until it ends.
If it is true that there can be no free will, then it is a lie, because the intrinsic nature of creation is a contradictory lie, and Yisun is the greatest liar of all.
The fact that there can be no free will is the exact proof that there can be free will, and if you disagree then I’m not so sure you really understand the story you’ve been reading.
“Freedom isn’t an illusion; it’s perfectly real in the context of sequential consciousness. Within the context of simultaneous consciousness, freedom is not meaningful, but neither is coercion; it’s simply a different context, no more or less valid than the other.”
– Ted Chiang
When everything is predetermined, life becomes a play, a performance. you do not choose to do what you do, but you do choose to follow the script.
We’re here to put on one hell of a show.
KSBD is also set in a universe that was created when YISUN decided to lie to themselves for their own amusement. The entire universe is a lie – sure, it has rules, and one of those rules is presently determinism, but of course that can change. Fate isn’t a cage – this is basically one of the central thematic tenets of the entire work.
Every demiurge has a fatal flaw in their worldview that prevents them from being anything other than a demiurge, trapped rotting in their own domains. Why would Jadis be any different?
Even if someone is aware that zebra’s are black and white, it doesn’t change the fact that they could be rainbow and the person in question is just colour blind. If you take everything you experience at face value as an indisputable truth of the universe, stuff gets boring real quick. And Allison seeing that free will does not exist doesn’t change the fact that denial is a thing. I live my life with the knowledge that I will die in around 50 years and my life will have meant literally nothing, and that’s fricking scary, but it doesn’t extract from my ability to live and feel happiness. Granted, knowing free will doesn’t exist is a bit worse, but my point still stands. Jadis is tragic because she sees everything all at once, and thus every action she takes is something she knows will happen, but Allison doesn’t. She, to my interpretation, wasn’t shown her exact future, or at least it wasn’t a clear picture, considering she only glanced at the void for a second. As long as she doesn’t know what she will do, choice is still real for her, at least to an extent. And even if she does know, than she knows she isn’t going to sit and sulk forever. But judging from how motivated she looks, I don’t think that’s the case. (And if you wanna get meta, fate in KSBD is written by Abbadon, so it doesnt matter what Allison wants, she is gonna do what Abbadon writes her doing either way.)
You don’t need free will to break the rule stipulating that free will doesn’t exist.
What the hell are you talking about?
Like, actually. What are you talking about? In the context of KSBD, we know, for a fact, that free will does not exist. It can’t suddenly exist at some point in the future, that doesn’t make any sense. In a world where everything is 100% deterministic, you can’t suddenly STOP being deterministic without some sort of drastic failure from outside interference, which can’t happen because the Wheel is literally all of time and space in all realities. There is no “outside” to interfere.
In KSBD, everything is also a lie told by Yisun, and most stories involving divinities insist that thinking in a rational, logical manner like you are right now is short-sighted and insufficient to comprehend reality.
If you can only think in binaries of IS and IS-NOT in a narrative like this one, you’re missing the whole point.
Pretty much. K6BD is based heavily on the Elder Scrolls, especially Vivec’s sermons in Morrowind. Power in both is rooted in the un-logic of belief. Have the humility to know you only see half the picture in a world where everyone else thinks they see the whole thing. Lie to the universe hard enough and it has no choice but to believe you.
In other words, why would it be impossible for Allison to take the predetermined actions that have the consequences of achieving free will?
I’m not saying she can choose to gain free will. Rather free will could be imposed on her as a consequence of her predetermined actions.
This is the right way to think about it, at least on a meta level.
Though ultimately all stories have to follow the rule of cause-and-affect I stated earlier, because truly defying it would result in a literally incomprehensible story. And even if achieved, us as readers would forcebly interpret it in a way that adheres to said rule, because that’s a fundamental component of how we think as organisms. It’s not a bad thing, it’s just a fact.
Free will is technically an antithesis of any and all forms of logic, and thus dosnt exist, in fiction or reality, but like I said before, that’s OK.
We as imperfect organisms are blessed with the “thrill of possibility” (or when it gets out of hand, a gambling addiction) its a cavat that one must be at peace with to enjoy the life we are given and the stories we read. (But really gambling additions are bad don’t let that happen)
The thing with free will is that determinism is a fatal poison to moral agency. In a perfect determinism worldview, if believing in determinism caused you to spiral into amoral nihilism and you go into a life of crime, you had no moral agency because it is the only path you could ever have taken.
Removing free will relieves one of all responsibilities except a purely utilitarian calculus because either you are fated to be good or bad, and every bad act you can take there was no other possibilities.
I don’t think free will has been proven not to exist, but that doesn’t change the fact that the belief in free will (and by extension moral agency) is essential for any somewhat ethical society to function
No, we do not known “for a fact” anything in K6BD. We “know for a fact” that Yisun is a consummate liar. And It is GOD. We also “known for a fact” that Psalms and Spasm can be lies. That Abbadon likes to mess with us. Personally, I think Thoughtmachine can be on spot. I mean… breaking the Wheel is actually destroying the Universe-Multiverse and its rules, no? So, and she’s been signaled by “deterministic prophecy” to be the one that does it, no?
I guess you are The Last One to Get It.
Aesma literally picked up the Wheel and beat someone half to death with it. Aesma is also one of two mythic figures heavily associated with Allison. I’m sure that’s just a coincidence, though.
This guy’s been throwing the same tantrum for AGES over Abbadon’s comments on free will and how this has “ruined the story” or whatever. He won’t stop harping on about it and making the same tedious points over and over again, so there’s little benefit to giving any serious attention to his insipid whining.
Do not argue with this demon as their name reveals all one must know.
Power for power’s sake is ultimately self-annihilating. You will devour yourself. One’s head becomes a hole.
Or their heart
She Appears Missing Now.
Quite literally it seems, looking at the failed aspirants over there.
Reaping the blood of the innocent,
The obelisk demands a sacrifice.
Alas, we know where a path paved with good intentions leads to.
It leads to a railroad crossing, and railroading?
Before you there are infinite universes and a trolley is headed towards them. You can pull the lever but is it really you pulling the lever or is it fate?
I’ve noticed that in those last 3 parts, I see dozens of others with similar makeup to what jadis commonly has, and then in the final panel they all kind of have their heads vaporized by a burning void. If I had to hazard a guess, I’d say those are the other children they tried plugging in.
They are in fact the Upper Ranked Priests of Jadis’ cult. They witnessed the Shape of the Universe with Jadis. None survived.
Great tits and correct opinions, indeed.
I hope someone describes me in the same way one day.
I think she’s about to learn that pain is endless, suffering is eternal, and get too sad about her goals 🙁
“I am” and then she wasn’t.
I can’t help but notice the next step would be just plain “I”, which is “the secret name of God”, which is also the shape of the Tower, which is the shape of the Wheel when seen from the side.
So the secret name of God is the shape of the universe, and Jadis arrives at it through reduction:
First she “is free to choose her own path” but she has been put on this path by others.
Then she “is free to choose” but what exactly? The paths of others? But those choices are results of where she is and so it comes back to the determinism.
Then she “is free” but in what sense? Is freedom without choice true? Maybe down the line she’ll rebuild her sense of self on the principle of freedom from choice and consequence but if you keep reducing.
And then “she is”, she exists, but if the secret name of God is “I” and it is the shape of the universe can anyone or anything within the universe claim to individually exist? Is even the existence of God a meaningful concept in any way if beginnings are false? Is non-existence a meaningful concept at all, if a tree falls and all that…
The God is I which exists which is meaningless for non-existence by definition non-exists.
I *Whack* am *Whack* totally *Whack* free *Whack*
Free to make all the choices they built her to make and keep doing all the things she was going to do because of it. Put down the book Jadis, and you might be able to live that story you’re telling.
“I choose to believe what I was programmed to believe!”
“With all your modern science, are you any closer to understanding the mystery of how a robot walks or talks?”
How privileged it is to be free enough to BELIEVE you are a slave.
I appreciate that all the emperors with Words have trauma or.realize how fallible they still are after meeting Allison, if by Allison’s words or realizing where they have gone wrong.
Maybe that is the way of a king, to inspire those who would follow you and show them the right way to live. A king is bridegroom to the land, the sacrifice that goes consenting to bar their people from disaster.
If they succeed, Earth remains free and ignorant. If they fail, Earth will be swept up in universal genocide by the hands of a suicidal man who cannot end his own suffering.
Is that present-day Jadis at the end there stating that she’s free? If so, the implications…
Probably not. The implication seems to be that she was proclaiming her freedom right up until the point where she gazed into the machine, which crushed any such notion on her part of freedom, and lead to her physically being encased in crystal.